Something I wish I had known before I purchased the vehicle

[Aaron]

Background Information:
Purchased the Clarity in October 2018. My daily commute is about 70 miles roundtrip. 60 of that is Hilly Southern California Freeway (75 mph). I charge every night on a 16 amp level II charger (takes probably 4 hours.) I recently changed my trash energy saver tires for the CCII's (or +'s....I don't remember which.) My current battery reading is about 47 A-H's.

As you can see (hopefully) from the picture I have almost 38k miles and I wake up to 34 miles of EV charge. I know all the standard disclaimers....freeway vs. city, hills vs. flat, warm vs. cold (SoCal....so....rarely cold)....blah blah blah. The sad truth is that 34 is pretty accurate for me. I EV it to the freeway, HV it to work, and then EV it all the way home. I never make it all the way home.

This is disappointing to me as The Clarity promotes 47 miles of EV range. As I think about the future of EV's I think this needs to be more clearly understood by the buying public as it's a serious hindrance. Even these vehicles that are touting 300 miles (Mach-E) are realistically looking at 200ish after a couple of years. That's gonna be a non-starter for a lot of people.
I'm not saying I would NOT have purchased a Clarity had I known this. But I am saying it would have made it significantly less likely.

 

[Recoil45]

I agree with you. Many pro EV owners dismiss these issues when talking to non-EV owners. I find that very dishonest as the issues are certainly real.


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[turtleturtle]

I agree with you. Many pro EV owners dismiss these issues when talking to non-EV owners. I find that very dishonest as the issues are certainly real.


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Totally agree as well. I was surprised on how much lower actual range was. Driving habits, sure, and other items as OP said, aside, I think these figures are too optimistic and will leave a bad taste in the mouth for most consumers.

 

[Landshark]

Did you get ~47 miles when it was new?

Try leaving yourself an extra 10 minutes of driving time and force yourself to drive 60-65. Yes, everyone in SoCal will hate you. My battery is at 49.9Ah and I’m still getting 45-50 EV miles if I keep it around 65mph.

If you always get an actual 34 miles of EV range, the range estimate will always be 34 miles. Does your EVSE measure kWh per charge?

 

[MrFixit]

Yes, it's the blah blah blah to be sure...
But, let me point out that your disappointment really only entails 2 blah's.

1. Battery degradation (you are at 47/55 Ah), so this is 85% of a 'new' vehicle.
2. Speed - When you routinely drive 75 MPH, that is a substantial hit. To quantify this, here is a Tesla plot:

Looking at a middle curve (green) the range drops from 300 miles to 230 miles with a speed increase from 60 to 75.

Your 34 mile range would go up to 44 miles just by slowing down to 60 mph.
With a 'new' battery, and driving at 60 mph, you would have a 52 mile range.

The main point you are trying to make is that this may not be "clear" to the potential buying public. But don't forget that the good old ICE vehicle will be just as deceptive. A Prius can get 50 mpg at 60 mph, but that will drop to maybe 40 if you are going 75-80. Not really much different than the EV in the end.

 

[JFon101231]

Temperature impacts to range are dramatic compared to ICE, but the impact of speed on fuel efficiency is not new

 

[Recoil45]

Yes, it's the blah blah blah to be sure...
But, let me point out that your disappointment really only entails 2 blah's.

1. Battery degradation (you are at 47/55 Ah), so this is 85% of a 'new' vehicle.
2. Speed - When you routinely drive 75 MPH, that is a substantial hit. To quantify this, here is a Tesla plot:

View attachment 11405
Looking at a middle curve (green) the range drops from 300 miles to 230 miles with a speed increase from 60 to 75.

Your 34 mile range would go up to 44 miles just by slowing down to 60 mph.
With a 'new' battery, and driving at 60 mph, you would have a 52 mile range.

The main point you are trying to make is that this may not be "clear" to the potential buying public. But don't forget that the good old ICE vehicle will be just as deceptive. A Prius can get 50 mpg at 60 mph, but that will drop to maybe 40 if you are going 75-80. Not really much different than the EV in the end.

The ICE comparison is irrelevant. The tank does not shrink over the years and you can fill up anywhere in under 10min. This comparison also turns off buyers and is the perfect example of the one of the points trying to be made here.


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[Landshark]

I may be misinterpreting Aaron’s point, but it seems to be, loss of battery capacity over time. And the perception that buyers of EV’s are unaware of this phenomenon.

We don’t know yet, if Aaron has ever achieved 47 EV miles at 75mph.
We do know that his battery capacity is ~15% below the stated, new capacity. That would equal a loss of ~7 miles.
We don’t know what the battery capacity was when the car was purchased.
We do know that his driving habits typically net ~34 EV miles. This, of course, produces EV range estimates of 34 miles.
We also know that Aaron recently switched to tires that may impact EV range and fuel economy.

Manufacturer claimed EV range or miles per gallon are based on a specific set of driving conditions. Outside of those conditions, all bets are off. Maybe the general public is ignorant to the nuances of current BEV’s. Maybe they don’t want to hear what they don’t want to hear. This is a common trend. Or, maybe, those who are pushing the BEV agenda are less than forthcoming about certain details regarding those vehicles.

Here’s a photo from today’s drive in So Cal. All but ~3 miles were on the freeways at speeds between 50-70mph, on a 49.9Ah battery

 

[PHEVDave]

Temperature impacts to range are dramatic compared to ICE, but the impact of speed on fuel efficiency is not new

Wind resistance follows the inverse square law I believe. So for example, driving twice as fast gets you four times the wind resistance.

 

[MrFixit]

The ICE comparison is irrelevant.

No it isn't...

One of the OP's main point was that he (and other prospective buyers) get blindsided by manufacturer's published range performance (47 in the case of the Clarity) not matching reality.

This is no different than a buyer who sees published mpg (either from the manufacturer or the EPA) on an ICE vehicle only to find that it falls significantly short of that number when they drive 80 mph through the mountains.

In my opinion, after 2.5 years, I have been pleased with how well my range has stacked up against the published 47. Yes, I don't get 47 in the winter with the heat on, but I almost always exceed it in the summer. But - I don't have a use case that operates at the margins.

I agree that the 'shrinking' battery and temperature performance is different than what you might expect from an ICE... Battery technology has evolved for the better pretty quickly and will continue to do so as EV's take hold even more. There is very serious talk of million mile batteries which will diminish the shrinking battery effect.

 

[Aaron]

Did you get ~47 miles when it was new?

Try leaving yourself an extra 10 minutes of driving time and force yourself to drive 60-65. Yes, everyone in SoCal will hate you. My battery is at 49.9Ah and I’m still getting 45-50 EV miles if I keep it around 65mph.

If you always get an actual 34 miles of EV range, the range estimate will always be 34 miles. Does your EVSE measure kWh per charge?

My EVSE does not measure kWh per charge. I do not have the ability to drive 65. I simply don't. I have tried. I just...............can't.

 

[Aaron]

One of the consistent reply's that I seem to be seeing above is "Well ICE vehicles don't get the published MPG either." That is correct. However....the ICE buying public is very well aware of this. I also drive a Nissan Titan. It has a published 18 (if I remember correctly) MPG. I know I am not getting that. I never expect to get that. I don't care if I get that. I didn't buy a truck to get good gas mileage. I bought a truck to do truck stuff....which it does.
The major selling point of an EV is SAVING money....which the Clarity does...there is no question....but not

No it isn't...

One of the OP's main point was that he (and other prospective buyers) get blindsided by manufacturer's published range performance (47 in the case of the Clarity) not matching reality.

This is no different than a buyer who sees published mpg (either from the manufacturer or the EPA) on an ICE vehicle only to find that it falls significantly short of that number when they drive 80 mph through the mountains.

In my opinion, after 2.5 years, I have been pleased with how well my range has stacked up against the published 47. Yes, I don't get 47 in the winter with the heat on, but I almost always exceed it in the summer. But - I don't have a use case that operates at the margins.

I agree that the 'shrinking' battery and temperature performance is different than what you might expect from an ICE... Battery technology has evolved for the better pretty quickly and will continue to do so as EV's take hold even more. There is very serious talk of million mile batteries which will diminish the shrinking battery effect.

Mr. Fix-IT.....

I am a huge fan of yours and your posts. They have been tremendously helpful to me. However.....driving 80 through the mountains and a simple daily commute in SoCal (no mountains) is really NOT the same thing.

 

[Aaron]

The ICE comparison is irrelevant. The tank does not shrink over the years and you can fill up anywhere in under 10min. This comparison also turns off buyers and is the perfect example of the one of the points trying to be made here.


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Exactly this. Thank you for understanding.

 

[Aaron]

Totally agree as well. I was surprised on how much lower actual range was. Driving habits, sure, and other items as OP said, aside, I think these figures are too optimistic and will leave a bad taste in the mouth for most consumers.

Yes. Exactly my point.

 

[JFon101231]

Perhaps you should voice your concerns to the EPA or whoever came up with the test cycle for EV cars. It can't be perfect for everyone. The fact you live in the hills and drive 80 shouldn't mean a flatlander in the flyover states who drives 65-70 shouldn't see what he/she would expect to realize. It is a RANGE they have to reduce to a single number, simple as that. Anyone on the leading edge of a developing technology needs to do their own research to understand what factors affect them and whether those apply to you - topography, temperature and speed are the biggest 3 (in no particular order) and seems you have at least 2 of the 3. You seem to want to invalidate the very disclaimers (aka blah blah about these) that are relevant.

 

[JFon101231]

My first EV was a Fit BEV. The range was about 50% in the winter, but I knew that going into it because I researched it, I knew the sales guy wasn't going to tell me.

 

[MrFixit]

My first EV was a Fit BEV. The range was about 50% in the winter, but I knew that going into it because I researched it, I knew the sales guy wasn't going to tell me.

As EV's become more prevalent, two things will happen. First, people will become more aware of these factors, and second, technology will continue to improve which will tend to mitigate these effects. Every buyer has to be responsible for evaluate a given vehicle / technology in light of their specific use case. Some have much more demanding use cases than others. I totally understand not being able to drive 60 when everyone else on the road is going 75, and I would never advocate that. It is certainly part of the use case that needs to be evaluated (whether you choose to buy a Clarity, a Tesla, or a Prius).

And yes... Don't depend on the car salesman to provide you with the knowledge you need !!!

 

[Aaron]

Perhaps you should voice your concerns to the EPA or whoever came up with the test cycle for EV cars. It can't be perfect for everyone. The fact you live in the hills and drive 80 shouldn't mean a flatlander in the flyover states who drives 65-70 shouldn't see what he/she would expect to realize. It is a RANGE they have to reduce to a single number, simple as that. Anyone on the leading edge of a developing technology needs to do their own research to understand what factors affect them and whether those apply to you - topography, temperature and speed are the biggest 3 (in no particular order) and seems you have at least 2 of the 3. You seem to want to invalidate the very disclaimers (aka blah blah about these) that are relevant.

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying? I don't live in the mountains. I actually live a mile from the ocean. I don't live in the cold.....or the heat. I live in probably the most temperate climate in the world? I do drive fast though.
I will say this.....this is EXACTLY the type of attitude that turns people off.
One of the wishes of the EV crowd is that others can enjoy the benefits of EVness. This.................is NOT the way.

 

[JFon101231]

However.....driving 80 through the mountains and a simple daily commute in SoCal (no mountains) is really NOT the same thing.

I assumed from your comment above you lived in the mountains (since you already mentioned high speed) as opposed to the experience of @Landshark hailing from SoCal...

FWIW, some people don't like my attitude regardless of the topic... what I was trying to say is there is a burden on the pursuer for any "new" technology etc. I hear your concern and think MrFixIT said it best above (over time awareness will increase and the pain points will decrease) so I'll leave it at that and sorry if I've offended you. I still remember how useless the iPhone3 my wife had gotten was.

 

[Aaron]

I assumed from your comment above you lived in the mountains (since you already mentioned high speed) as opposed to the experience of @Landshark hailing from SoCal...

FWIW, some people don't like my attitude regardless of the topic... what I was trying to say is there is a burden on the pursuer for any "new" technology etc. I hear your concern and think MrFixIT said it best above (awareness will increase and the pain points will decrease) so I'll leave it at that and sorry if I've offended you

No worries. I think we are all on the same path/hoping for the same thing.