Sandy Munro on the ID.4 problem(s)

[bwilson4web]

Source:


He shows what is wrong with the ID.4 and takes exception to critics of his engineering approach. With over 50 years of hands-on experience, Sandy does not (nor should) suffer fools gladly.

Bob Wilson

 

[gonzogeezer]

He claims to show what is wrong with the ID.4 … in his opinion, one which has consistently shown a bias towards Tesla. He questions the decisions made by Ford and VW, yet has not asked either to explain why they made the production decisions they did. He would rather pontificate in his videos without offering an opportunity for rebuttal.

Yet in an earlier video his only real criticism of the VW battery pack was their decision to use aluminum, a recyclable product, instead of injection molded plastic. Oh, and he hates screws and bolts. So his solution is injection molded plastic battery boxes snapped together, which would seem to lessen the ability for the packs to be repaired or recycled.

 

[bwilson4web]

He claims to show what is wrong with the ID.4 . . .

His video shows the problem. VW decided the dash should be empty and the engine bay full of equipment that could fit in the dash. There is no in-dash storage whereas other EVs have a front trunk.

Bob Wilson

 

[gooki]

I'd call that more of a design decision than a problem.

 

[ericy]

His video shows the problem. VW decided the dash should be empty and the engine bay full of equipment that could fit in the dash. There is no in-dash storage whereas other EVs have a front trunk.

You do realize that in some trim levels there is a augmented reality heads-up-display projector that needs to go into the dash. And that's not a small piece of equipment - someone quoted a figure of 9 liters volume. None of the trim levels sold in the US have this however - it is only the very top trim in Europe that gets this. Some have wondered whether the new Audi would have this.

Some models will be AWD - that requires space for the additional motor under the hood. The AWD won't be out until later this year.

Some markets/trims have a heat pump and not just AC. That requires extra equipment. US markets don't get this, Canada does.

If Munro knew what he was talking about, he would know all of this.

 

[bwilson4web]

. . . None of the trim levels sold in the US have this . . . US markets don't get this, . . .

Sandy Munro has a pretty clear picture of the USA market and identified why the ID.4 is a poor match for the USA market:

Perhaps it is time for a Chattanooga variant to be redesigned and built for the USA market?

Bob Wilson

 

[marshall]

Some models will be AWD - that requires space for the additional motor under the hood. The AWD won't be out until later this year.

Some markets/trims have a heat pump and not just AC. That requires extra equipment. US markets don't get this, Canada does.

If Munro knew what he was talking about, he would know all of this.

So you believe that the VW fan club hasn't mentioned this to him. I kind of find that hard to believe. Plus, he doesn't work alone. He has a whole crew of tech and engineering personnel, and they aren't stupid.

Anyhow, doesn't Ford and Tesla have a heat pump, and a motor up front, but still managed to find room for the front trunk?

 

[ENirogus]

It is not that Sandy is wrong, or is not educated or knowledgeable, it is that his opinion is always a fact, and that whole video is just to prove he is smarter than a whole design team

Which might be true, but is not really necessary to point that out for 10 minutes

One could call ones contacts at VW engineering and ask 'what gives?' Maybe there is a rational answer, maybe it is bad design.


His videos are informative despite his 'I am smartest guy in the room' attitude, not because of it.

I have been around engineers like this, they don't last in an organization long, they usually end up being consultants.........oh, wait......

 

[gonzogeezer]

Before Tesla had the frunk, you have to probably go back to the Beetle to find one. The world managed to limp along without frunks, it will probably be able to in future.

Stupid damn first-world problems.

 

[bwilson4web]

Sandy shares his insights with us including the manufacturers. There is no requirement that the makers respond. But after sharing the Model 3 problems, Musk said ‘So we fired the Model 3 engineer responsible.’

When I was working, I occasionally ran into ‘technologists who I knew were wrong.’ So I applied the rule of three: (1) private discussions; (2) public comments, and; (3) work like heck in private on a get well plan.

The ID.4 is flawed and Sandy shows why. It will not see my shadow regardless of what even less qualified anonymous posters might claim. My perfect curse, buy yours.

Bob Wilson

 

[marshall]

it is that his opinion is always a fact, and that whole video is just to prove he is smarter than a whole design team

His whole business is to look for cost reduction, improvement and reporting on what the competition is doing. I think we have to remember that Sandy uses these videos to promote his business. So clearly he is going to come across a bit strong for some folks, but he and his team are not stupid, as some folks seem to suggest.

Anyhow, VW and KIA/Hyundai decided to not to go with a front trunk. Tesla, Ford, and Volvo said yes to a front trunk. Whether or not a front trunk is a design flaw or not will be determined by the market. Clearly, we know what Sandy thinks.

 

[R P]

KIA/Hyundai decided to not to go with a front trunk.

Not true. Fake news... Look at the Ioniq 5 and the new Kia EVs. These are the first BEV only cars for this manufacturer. And as it happens I can also have my own frunk in my Kona. I have posted pics on the Kona forum frunk threads. Quite a bit of room actually. But so far have not really needed it.

Problem with Sandy, is he never mention the important flaws or missing features with the Teslas. Just today, the wife and I went on a hike, and when we returned it felt so great to turn on the ventilated seats cooling on high (3 settings). These perforated leather seats are so great compared to my son's Tesla with the hard non perforated leather seats, and the inevitable sweaty butts.

 

[bwilson4web]

BTW:
https://ir.tesla.com/press-release/tesla-q2-2021-vehicle-production-deliveries

Jul 2, 2021
PALO ALTO, Calif., July 2, 2021 – In the second quarter, we produced and delivered over 200,000 vehicles. Our teams have done an outstanding job navigating through global supply chain and logistics challenges.

          Production  Deliveries Subject to operating lease accounting
Model S/X      2,340       1,890 18%
Model 3/Y    204,081     199,360 7%
Total        206,421     201,250 7%

It must be terribly frustrating that over 201,000 paid for their Tesla and how many choose your ride in 2021 Q2? Does anyone care?

Bob Wilson

 

[R P]

Well, I drive in both cars, my son's Tesla M3, and our Kona, and these facts are pretty obvious. You, however, don't, so have no direct experience to talk about this issue.

 

[bwilson4web]

Well, I drive in both cars, my son's Tesla M3, and our Kona, and these facts are pretty obvious. You, however, don't, so have no direct experience to talk about this issue.

• 49,210 miles of 2019 Std Rng Plus Model 3
• 0 miles in Kona electric

Regardless, I'll head over to the Hyundai dealer (https://www.bentleyhyundai.com/?utm_source=GMBListing&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=local) on Friday:

• Huntsville dealer does not have one ... gosh, their sales must have collapsed, no demand
• Nashville Hyundai (615)682-0072, tells me: 'You can only get one in New York or California.' Also, 'local dealers are unable to work on them.'

In the meanwhile, I have 49,000 miles in my +2 year old, Std Rng Plus Model 3. A real car with my real miles.

Bob Wilson

 

[R P]

• 49,210 miles of 2019 Std Rng Plus Model 3
• 0 miles of Kona

Regardless, I'll head over to the Hyundai dealer (https://www.bentleyhyundai.com/?utm_source=GMBListing&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=local) on Friday:

• Huntsville dealer does not have one ... gosh, their sales must have collapsed, no demand
• Nashville Hyundai (615)682-0072, tells me: 'You can only get one in New York or California.' Also, 'local dealers are unable to work on them.'

In the meanwhile, I have 49,000 miles in my +2 year old, Std Rng Plus Model 3. A real car with my real miles.

Bob Wilson

It's certainly true that Hyundai could not keep up to demand for the Kona and was not able to offer them for sale everywhere. After I bought mine in spring of 2019, prospective owners had to wait almost a year, some more, after a pre-order. They totally under estimated the popularity of this car. So I consider myself lucky to get one. Having said that it would be a mistake to call me a Kona fanboi. If you look at many of my posts, esp early on when I did have some issues, you will see that I was not totally happy with the car. But at least I was honest about it. And even today, I consider my other ICE vehicle a better car all around, except it isn't an EV. But my Kona is certainly a lot better than your M3, in so many ways.

My issue with you, is that you ignore the bad or missing features, and like to criticize other people's choices in cars, with NO direct experience.

... thinking they are getting a cheap "luxury" car. That feeling soon wanes once they have had it for a while. The Kona is certainly no luxury car either, but it definitely has a better looking (and functional) interior and more useful features than an M3. And I laugh at Tesla fanbois calling the interior "minimalist" instead of just plain cheap, which is what it is. I almost gag every time I see that horrid faded fake wood strip on the front dash. But I know all that doesn't matter to you.

 

[hobbit]

With all the EV teardowns Munro's done, do I have it right that Hyundai is notably absent, esp.
the Kona? He would probably have a field day with what we already know about the motor
to reduction-gear issues, and I wouldn't mind seeing a dump, even if somewhat flawed, on
its motor itself. I actually tried to send him mail to suggest same, which of course was a
black hole.

_H*

 

[ericy]

With all the EV teardowns Munro's done, do I have it right that Hyundai is notably absent, esp.
the Kona? He would probably have a field day with what we already know about the motor
to reduction-gear issues, and I wouldn't mind seeing a dump, even if somewhat flawed, on
its motor itself. I actually tried to send him mail to suggest same, which of course was a
black hole.

I like John Kelley's teardowns better. I once asked him if he could do one of the Korean EVs (Niro/Kona). He sounded interested, but said they basically need to go out and buy the car on the open market first, so there is a funding issue.

 

[R P]

With all the EV teardowns Munro's done, do I have it right that Hyundai is notably absent, esp.
the Kona? He would probably have a field day with what we already know about the motor
to reduction-gear issues, and I wouldn't mind seeing a dump, even if somewhat flawed, on
its motor itself. I actually tried to send him mail to suggest same, which of course was a
black hole.

_H*

Yes, I had the motor/reduction gear issue early on. Was not happy about that. They changed both and has been good ever since. Strange that some had it, but most didn't. Kia Niro was the same. Never had an explanation from Hyundai for the problem. But yes, would be interesting to see what an independent engineer would have to say about that (maybe not Sandy).

 

[miatadan]

Most likely the reason for not having EV teardown of Hyundai/Kia is that they were not designed from the ground up as an BEV , ICE vehicle converted to EV.

Even most of Hyundai/Kia ICE vehicles not the best quality with many recall's

http://www.hyundaiproblems.com/recalls/

https://hyundaiengineinfo.com

https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/consumer-alert-important-hyundai-and-genesis-recalls-fire-risk

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/hyundai-recalls-390k-vehicles-engine-fires-77487348

Most reliable vehicles generally has been Toyota, Honda, Lexus, Acura but they mostly have hybrids for now.

Will be interesting once the Toyota bZ4X BEV is available.

Dan