Realistic winter range numbers

[WA7S]

I drive a 2022 VW ID4 AWD Pro S.
EPA rates this car’s range at 245 miles.

I repeatedly drive from home to Seattle: 174 miles at highway speeds of 55, 60 and 70, including Chinook Pass at 3,022 feet. This car is shod with with Michelin x-ice snow tires and handles very well.

In winter weather this car actually gets 2.2 miles per kWh. That’s after fully pre-heating it before departure.

For trips I will charge the car to the full 100% (not recommended as an everyday practice).
I plan for an unused reserve of 15 kWh for safety and to avoid 4mph turtle mode and to leave room for all those unpredictable vagaries of EA EV charging stations.
So the usable 62 kWh gives me a reliable range of 136 miles between charges. That’s quite a bit less real world range, than the 245 mile EPA figure. And it won’t get me to Seattle without a charging stop.

At the charging stations, don’t be misled by the VW advertising numbers that tout a fast rate of 135 kw per hour.
In reality, in winter this car can typically only accept 40 to 60 kw per hour, sometimes less, even at charging stations that could provide up to 350 kw per hour.
So it will typically take more than an hour, at a mid-route pit stop, to get back up to that 100% charge.
Allow extra time for the usual delays in finding an available charging station that is working, and the occasional calls you’ll need to make to EA for help in getting a glitchy charger to behave.

I’m still a believer in EV cars. But it’s hard to recommend if your family was raised on ICE, expects that higher level of predictability and shorter travel times, and is unaccustomed to the uncertainties, complexity and down time of today’s EV world.

 

[ericy]

In warmer weather, the 120kW numbers are real, but there is not yet any preconditioning capability, so in colder temperatures the lower rates are more normal. Reportedly VW understands the need for it, but it isn't there yet.

I drive a 2022 VW ID4 AWD Pro S.
EPA rates this car’s range at 245 miles.

I repeatedly drive from home to Seattle: 174 miles at highway speeds of 55, 60 and 70, including Chinook Pass at 3,022 feet. This car is shod with with Michelin x-ice snow tires and handles very well.

In winter weather this car actually gets 2.2 miles per kWh. That’s after fully pre-heating it before departure.

For trips I will charge the car to the full 100% (not recommended as an everyday practice).
I plan for an unused reserve of 15 kWh for safety and to avoid 4mph turtle mode and to leave room for all those unpredictable vagaries of EA EV charging stations.
So the usable 62 kWh gives me a reliable range of 136 miles between charges. That’s quite a bit less real world range, than the 245 mile EPA figure. And it won’t get me to Seattle without a charging stop.

At the charging stations, don’t be misled by the VW advertising numbers that tout a fast rate of 135 kw per hour.
In reality, in winter this car can typically only accept 40 to 60 kw per hour, sometimes less, even at charging stations that could provide up to 350 kw per hour.
So it will typically take more than an hour, at a mid-route pit stop, to get back up to that 100% charge.
Allow extra time for the usual delays in finding an available charging station that is working, and the occasional calls you’ll need to make to EA for help in getting a glitchy charger to behave.

I’m still a believer in EV cars. But it’s hard to recommend if your family was raised on ICE, expects that higher level of predictability and shorter travel times, and is unaccustomed to the uncertainties, complexity and down time of today’s EV world.

 

[danrjones]

I haven't done a lot of fast charging with our 2023 ID4, but I think the fastest I've seen is 140 kW. I'll have to look back through my EA records to see if it says the max speed you had for a session. Mine is a 2023 RWD Pro S. I think SK.

My problem hasn't been the speed, but the reliability of EA. We've been having this discussion over on the ID4 forums and some folks love EA and say it's the best, and others like me - not so much. The EA stations around me tend to only have 2 of 4 working, and some times are down altogether. The US 395 corridor is particularly bad - Caltrans HAD installed some 50 kW stations, so you had backups. But those have all failed now. The CCS charging situation is laughably bad, I have no idea how they expect to have millions more on the road in CA in the next few years. Kyle Conner from Out of Spec has been covering this issue. They are even developing an App to compete with Plugshare. Hopefully companies like EA will actually listen?

 

[insightman]

Hopefully companies like EA will actually listen?

What's in it for them to listen? EA doesn't make money on broken charging stations, so it must cost more to keep them working than what they earn when their charging stations are working. Unless they can install more reliable charging stations, the only way to make it feasible to keep the old ones working is to soak the customer with higher charging fees.

Only competition will solve this problem. It appears that only Tesla can provide competition. However, Tesla is not racing to install their Magic Dock CCS adapter on all Superchargers, probably because the problems it will cause with Tesla owners. Not only will the Magic Dock result in more competition for Superchargers, but to use a Supercharger with its short charging cable, many EVs have to occupy the adjacent parking stall, not the one dedicated to that Supercharger--so they're taking up TWO Supercharger stalls.

 

[danrjones]

I agree - though I also think the solution is regulation. I know regulating what is essentially private industry is often a sore point for many, but the Government has LONG regulated essential infrastructure. I think this is especially the case if they are using tax payer money to install chargers, but even if they aren't, I think precedent exists to regulate. I'd require an uptime - with penalties - especially if a driver arrives to a site that's being reported online, but then isn't. That should carry severe fines. If you install a charger, it needs to work - that should be the law.

As per Tesla, my speculation is that you won't see any more V3 open to CCS beyond what they have now in testing. I think these are just to test, and to wet the appetite. I'm thinking any additional magic docks will only be V4, because V4 has longer cables, higher voltages, and solves (some) of those issues you are describing. Just my guess.

 

[teslarati97]

What's in it for them to listen? EA doesn't make money on broken charging stations, so it must cost more to keep them working than what they earn when their charging stations are working. Unless they can install more reliable charging stations, the only way to make it feasible to keep the old ones working is to soak the customer with higher charging fees.

It really doesn't matter because the 10-year $2bn ZEV settlement for 2.0L dieselgate will finish in 2026. You can read Appendix C in the amended 2.0L partial consent decree.

 

[insightman]

I agree - though I also think the solution is regulation. I know regulating what is essentially private industry is often a sore point for many, but the Government has LONG regulated essential infrastructure. I think this is especially the case if they are using tax payer money to install chargers, but even if they aren't, I think precedent exists to regulate. I'd require an uptime - with penalties - especially if a driver arrives to a site that's being reported online, but then isn't. That should carry severe fines. If you install a charger, it needs to work - that should be the law.

As per Tesla, my speculation is that you won't see any more V3 open to CCS beyond what they have now in testing. I think these are just to test, and to wet the appetite. I'm thinking any additional magic docks will only be V4, because V4 has longer cables, higher voltages, and solves (some) of those issues you are describing. Just my guess.

If the government creates up-time requirements, then charging-station companies will have to charge higher fees to either employ more repair staff or to purchase more reliable charging stations. If the government imposes both tough regulations and maximum charging fees, that will likely force many charging-station companies out of business.

 

[danrjones]

If the government creates up-time requirements, then charging-station companies will have to charge higher fees to either employ more repair staff or to purchase more reliable charging stations. If the government imposes both tough regulations and maximum charging fees, that will likely force many charging-station companies out of business.

I'd rather have fewer and even more expensive chargers, if that means reliable. Ymmv.

But Tesla manages it, so we know it's not impossible to build reliable charging equipment.

What will happen to EA after 2026 I wonder?

 

[teslarati97]

What will happen to EA after 2026 I wonder?

The $300M spend per 30 month cycle requirement (4 cycles = 10 years) is no longer required (from EPA settlement). After that EA and user data can be sold for a profit!

 

[Stephen W Hendricks]

I drive a 2022 VW ID4 AWD Pro S.
EPA rates this car’s range at 245 miles.

I’m still a believer in EV cars. But it’s hard to recommend if your family was raised on ICE, expects that higher level of predictability and shorter travel times, and is unaccustomed to the uncertainties, complexity and down time of today’s EV world.

The type of complaint you have is being heard more and more often. In some areas MOST of the EVSE are out of order. And many of the chargers cannot deliver their maximum stated charge rate. This will likely improve, else the entire idea of going BEV is in jeopardy.

 

[WA7S]

Here's another issue that adds to the uncertainty. My ID4 malfunctioned, threw 14 pages of error messages, the local dealer says it's problems with both batteries but they have no mechanic certified to do high voltage battery work. He suggested a dealer 100 miles away, but their certified mechanic is off work. I continue to try to locate a place to fix this car's electrical system. And the two recalls on this car can't be fixed due to lack of parts. Lack of trained mechanics and parts makes EV ownership harder than we are used to.

 

[Stephen W Hendricks]

Here's another issue that adds to the uncertainty. My ID4 malfunctioned, threw 14 pages of error messages, the local dealer says it's problems with both batteries but they have no mechanic certified to do high voltage battery work. He suggested a dealer 100 miles away, but their certified mechanic is off work. I continue to try to locate a place to fix this car's electrical system. And the two recalls on this car can't be fixed due to lack of parts. Lack of trained mechanics and parts makes EV ownership harder than we are used to.

Call Volkswagen Customer Service.

 

[OneEV]

My ID 2023 awd Pro S with SK battery typically pulls over 180kW and 80kW at around 80%

I was @ 2% yesterday took 30 minutes to get to 75% . Top speed was 185kW











You need to get below 20% and preferably below 10% SOC before starting a charging session

 

[OneEV]

back to OPs original topic ..winter range . My worst winter range was yesterday starting out at negative 10 F, 134 total miles + squeeze another 3-4 milles from buffer. (best 306miles summer)

Unable to get HVAC from pulling less than 5kW at those temps . After VW gets battery preheat (so toasty battery when you et to DCFC) I'd really like to see them or someone in the industry to finally find a solution to winter HVAC for the really cold temps.

I know heat pump technology for homes is making great strides but havent seen any hp news improvements for EVs ? anyone see anything new in this area?

 

[ericy]

After a couple of years in this car, the preconditioning question keeps coming up. I don't recall the exact behavior on the original 2.1 software that the car came with, so the remaining comments have to do with how the car behaves with the 3.x version software.

• The peak charge rates that people get in the warmer months occur when the battery temperature is > about 70F. Note that this is battery temp, not ambient temp - those two temps are not the same thing. The colder the battery, the slower the charge rate.
• Just driving will gradually warm the battery to about 32F, but this is a slow process. VW has tried to optimize things so that if you are taking lots of short trips that it doesn't consume huge amounts of juice, so they opted to make the heating a gradual process.
• If you precondition the cabin temperature while you are at home and connected to shore power, it will also warm the battery to 32F.
• If you connect to a DCFC, the battery heater will come on if the battery temperature is < 70F. To get from 32F to 70F takes 10-15 minutes or so - charging rates will start out slow, but as the battery warms, the charge rate will increase.
• If you predominantly charge from L2 at home, your winter charging experience isn't much different from charging in the summer. You just plug in, and go inside.

The worst thing you can do is get in a car with a stone-cold battery, and pop over to a nearby DCFC to charge. The battery will not have had much time to warm up, and charging will be slow while the battery warms up from ambient to ~70F.

BatteryLife recently got a new ID.7, and it has software version 4.0. That software version has more battery preconditioning options. It is believed that the 2024 model year cars will have the same software, but nobody has gotten their hands on those cars as of yet, so we don't know for certain.

 

[VeeDub'r]

Not been here for a while ... but now at 38k on my Dec '21 delivered AWD ID.4.

Question: Does simply driving for extended periods not heat the battery ???

I just completed a 1,400 mile / 4-day trip in "coolish" weather (Mid-30's / Low-40's) and still noted slow charging even after hundreds of miles of continuous "70 MPH" operation. (<50 kW @ 50% SoC)

As the battery, converter electronics, and motors are all liquid-cooled, one might expect that after extended continuous operation, the battery temp might be held at a more optimum charge acceptance temp by a cooling fluid temp control ... ??? (e.g. by a fluid cooler bypass)

Also FYI ... I do not yet have the hardware/software to display battery temp.

 

[ericy]

Not been here for a while ... but now at 38k on my Dec '21 delivered AWD ID.4.

Question: Does simply driving for extended periods not heat the battery ???

I just completed a 1,400 mile / 4-day trip in "coolish" weather (Mid-30's / Low-40's) and still noted slow charging even after hundreds of miles of continuous "70 MPH" operation. (<50 kW @ 50% SoC)

As the battery, converter electronics, and motors are all liquid-cooled, one might expect that after extended continuous operation, the battery temp might be held at a more optimum charge acceptance temp by a cooling fluid temp control ... ??? (e.g. by a fluid cooler bypass)

Also FYI ... I do not yet have the hardware/software to display battery temp.

Just driving only partially warms the battery - up to about 50F, and that's not enough to achieve the highest charging rates. The car uses the battery heater to gradually do this as you drive. There is some waste heat that is scavenged, but not enough.

When you first plug into a DCFC, the battery heater should come on, and that will warm the battery up to 70F. That process itself takes about 10-15 minutes or so. Once the battery hits 70F, the maximum charge rates are possible, but if the SOC is too high, you will still get charge rates slower than the 120kW that you might hope to achieve. On a longer road trip, the 2nd charge of the day shouldn't need much battery heating.

At the end of the day, getting the best charge rates really depend on getting the state of charge down below 20%. And yeah, that can be tricky sometimes - especially with a sparse charger network. What you end up needing to do is plan things during charging so you reach the next charger with a sufficiently low SOC for a good charge rate, but with enough range to reach a different charger if the intended charger is broken or horribly busy. And that's a tricky balance these days given the amount of congestion at EA in a number of places.

 

[OneEV]

Heres another winter charging Video (wasnt feeling great ..vid ksucks but good info) I did on the 2023 ID 4 charging cold weather. 35 degrees F/ 56F battery ..and STILL able to pull 179kW using a Tesla magicDock

Yes even without preconditioning as I have stated before and Ericy ..to get the best speeds no matter the outside temps just make sure you wait to charge until you are under 20% . I can always get to 80% in 30 minutes. BTW.. I am on the SKi battery .. if you have an LG battery would like see more cold weather charging speed posts so we can determine if some of this disparity is between the 2 batteries (LG/SKi)