Public charger operating power

[Rickker]

Hello, I am new to the forum and this is my first post. I have a 2019 Ultimate and love it. What is likely different from me to most forum members is that I live in an apartment and therefore depend on public chargers most of the time. I say most of the time because I also have access to my nephew's Level 2 charger, but that is about 5 km away, and not very convenient.

I am located in Kingston, Ontario Canada. While I usually use a FLO Level 2 charger for a couple of hours at a time, I also occasionally use the Petro-Canada Fast DC charger. Back in August of this year, the charger was running at over 70 kW which worked out to about 27¢ per kWh. However, this same charger is now running at about 40 kW. Not sure if this is a malfunction or if Petro-Canada has deliberately throttled back the power level.

Today, I tried out the newly installed Electric City fast charger in our area. I was dismayed that it too was operating at only 40 kW and quickly terminated the charging session.

I am now wondering the low charging power is somehow controlled by my Kona, rather than the public chargers? Would appreciate some feedback from some of you. Thanks.

.....Rickker

 

[ericy]

Hello, I am new to the forum and this is my first post. I have a 2019 Ultimate and love it. What is likely different from me to most forum members is that I live in an apartment and therefore depend on public chargers most of the time. I say most of the time because I also have access to my nephew's Level 2 charger, but that is about 5 km away, and not very convenient.

I am located in Kingston, Ontario Canada. While I usually use a FLO Level 2 charger for a couple of hours at a time, I also occasionally use the Petro-Canada Fast DC charger. Back in August of this year, the charger was running at over 70 kW which worked out to about 27¢ per kWh. However, this same charger is now running at about 40 kW. Not sure if this is a malfunction or if Petro-Canada has deliberately throttled back the power level.

Today, I tried out the newly installed Electric City fast charger in our area. I was dismayed that it too was operating at only 40 kW and quickly terminated the charging session.

I am now wondering the low charging power is somehow controlled by my Kona, rather than the public chargers? Would appreciate some feedback from some of you. Thanks.

.....Rickker

It can depend on battery pack temperature, and in cold weather the charge rate can be lower.

My own experience is that just driving will warm it up some. Charging 1st thing in the morning when the pack is coldest usually gives the worst results.

But you should also have a battery warmer (we don't get them in the US). One of your fellow Canadians should be able to fill you in on how to get the most out of it.

 

[apu]

Hello, I am new to the forum and this is my first post. I have a 2019 Ultimate and love it. What is likely different from me to most forum members is that I live in an apartment and therefore depend on public chargers most of the time. I say most of the time because I also have access to my nephew's Level 2 charger, but that is about 5 km away, and not very convenient.

I am located in Kingston, Ontario Canada. While I usually use a FLO Level 2 charger for a couple of hours at a time, I also occasionally use the Petro-Canada Fast DC charger. Back in August of this year, the charger was running at over 70 kW which worked out to about 27¢ per kWh. However, this same charger is now running at about 40 kW. Not sure if this is a malfunction or if Petro-Canada has deliberately throttled back the power level.

Today, I tried out the newly installed Electric City fast charger in our area. I was dismayed that it too was operating at only 40 kW and quickly terminated the charging session.

I am now wondering the low charging power is somehow controlled by my Kona, rather than the public chargers? Would appreciate some feedback from some of you. Thanks.

.....Rickker

Rickker this is unfortunately normal behavior when the battery pack gets cold. The only thing constructive I can add is to make sure your have winter mode turned on in the EV settings before you charge, this will divert some of the power from the charger to the battery heater and allow it to warm up and eventually allow a faster charge. Nonetheless if you have to rely on DC chargers in typical Canadian winters it will be significantly pricier than the summer months.

 

[Rickker]

It can depend on battery pack temperature, and in cold weather the charge rate can be lower.

My own experience is that just driving will warm it up some. Charging 1st thing in the morning when the pack is coldest usually gives the worst results.

But you should also have a battery warmer (we don't get them in the US). One of your fellow Canadians should be able to fill you in on how to get the most out of it.

Yes, I understand the temperature issue, but today was 10 degrees Celsius. That is not cold. Also, I had been driving for over half an hour before plugging into the fast charger. Finally, I do have a battery warmer, but it does not engage, nor is it needed unless it is really cold.

 

[Rickker]

Rickker this is unfortunately normal behavior when the battery pack gets cold. The only thing constructive I can add is to make sure your have winter mode turned on in the EV settings before you charge, this will divert some of the power from the charger to the battery heater and allow it to warm up and eventually allow a faster charge. Nonetheless if you have to rely on DC chargers in typical Canadian winters it will be significantly pricier than the summer months.

Again, it is my understanding that even if Winter Mode is enabled, it does not switch on unless it is really cold. Today was +10 Celsius and from what I have read, the battery warmer would not have made a difference. I am not relying on DC chargers, just use them occasionally for convenience. The subject Petro-Canada DC charger used to run at 70 kW at 15 degrees Celsius. I can't believe the power would drop to 40 kW at 10 degrees. Did Petro-Canada throttle back their chargers? A great way to increase their profit.
What I am really asking is what power levels forum members have observed from Fast DC chargers. Are they all just operating at 40 kW?

 

[KiwiME]

10°C at the battery is certainly cold enough to slow DC charging and in my experience will engage the battery heater until 15°C is reached, although I'm unclear if enabling Winter Mode is a prerequisite, because I believe that's applicable while driving. There are other temperature tiers as well that I'll never see. You might find it advantageous to obtain one of the OBD monitoring systems that we frequently discuss to make your own correlations.
I spent the first year using a public charger for the same reason but fortunately it was only a 2 min walk away.

 

[electriceddy]

Again, it is my understanding that even if Winter Mode is enabled, it does not switch on unless it is really cold. Today was +10 Celsius and from what I have read, the battery warmer would not have made a difference. I am not relying on DC chargers, just use them occasionally for convenience. The subject Petro-Canada DC charger used to run at 70 kW at 15 degrees Celsius. I can't believe the power would drop to 40 kW at 10 degrees. Did Petro-Canada throttle back their chargers? A great way to increase their profit.
What I am really asking is what power levels forum members have observed from Fast DC chargers. Are they all just operating at 40 kW?

I can verify that these statistics are pretty darn accurate.
https://insideevsforum.com/communit...r-mode-defined-and-condensed.7977/#post-91617
On my 21 model I can only get around 23kW rate on a 50 kW machine when I charge a cold battery ( in that 1 to 5 degree category at the present time)
The same machine when it was 15 degrees C (same car - first DC charge same day I bought the car) I got 48kW.

 

[CharlyM]

The good thing though is that because the battery warms up as it’s charging, if you do back to back charging you can reach the 30C equilibrium and the battery will not cool down below 25C before your next charge, at least when it’s ~0-5C outside.

 

[Rickker]

I can verify that these statistics are pretty darn accurate.
https://insideevsforum.com/communit...r-mode-defined-and-condensed.7977/#post-91617
On my 21 model I can only get around 23kW rate on a 50 kW machine when I charge a cold battery ( in that 1 to 5 degree category at the present time)
The same machine when it was 15 degrees C (same car - first DC charge same day I bought the car) I got 48kW.

electriceddy, thank you for that link. Some good information there. However, in checking my EV settings, I did have Winter Mode enabled. And I had been driving for half an hour before plugging into the Fast Charger. So my battery should have been good and warm when starting the charging session. It started at about 40 kW, and I terminated the session pretty quickly. In Canada, we pay by the charging time, not by the kilowatt-hours that are put into the battery. I am not prepared to pay 40¢ per kWh to charge my Kona.

It is interesting that the AC Level 2 chargers are not much affected by battery temperature. When I use the Level 2 charger at my nephew's house, the charging power is always 7.4 kW, regardless of ambient temperature. This is using a Mustart 32 amp charging cable.

It is clear that the only winners here, when it comes to charging, are homeowners who charge overnight in their own garages or driveways at TOU rates.
.....Rickker

 

[KiwiME]

... I had been driving for half an hour before plugging into the Fast Charger. So my battery should have been good and warm when starting the charging session.

The effect is not really that great. Let's assume you need an average of 20 kW while driving. The battery discharge loss is about 2%. So you have 400 watts heat warming the thermal mass of the entire battery pack minus whatever you lose with convective cooling from ambient air flowing around the pack. The battery heater on the other hand is at least 2kW and you're not moving.

It is interesting that the AC Level 2 chargers are not much affected by battery temperature. ... the charging power is always 7.4 kW, regardless of ambient temperature.

Well, compare that charge level to the numbers you've mentioning charging on DC and you've answered your own question. 7.4 kW is merely 1/10 of the maximum capability of the pack, quite low power even if it is the max for the on-board charger.

 

[Rickker]

Thanks to all who have responded. I have received a very useful education in cold weather DC charging. It seems my best option is to stick to AC charging as much as possible. Much cheaper, and less stressful on the battery.
One final question: Since Winter Mode is intended to improve DC charging, and cold weather driving performance, is there any point in enabling it if one is only using 240v AC charging, and not concerned about maximum performance? There is a significant reduction in range when Winter Mode is enabled. Is it worth it? Thanks.
....Rickker

 

[KiwiME]

... There is a significant reduction in range when Winter Mode is enabled. Is it worth it? Thanks.
....Rickker

No-doubt that's why it's selectable ... and you can change it at any time to suit. In general you might consider leaving it on unless you find yourself in a situation where the maximum possible range is critical.

 

[srkz]

To drop a little anecdote from a different vehicle and back up what KiwiMe is saying here - I just did a road trip in my wife's Tesla Model 3 and noticed that the first charging stop after about 2 hours of driving required 35 minutes of battery pre-heating before the charge (the Tesla indicates when it's preheating the battery for a DC fast charge session, which can be taken as sort of a tangential indication of how cold the battery is in relation to optimum charge temperature.) After a fast charge there and another 1.5 hours of driving it only needed to pre-warm the battery for about 10 minutes before the second charging stop, and after another charge and another 2ish hours it didn't need to warm the battery at all for the final charge stop.

What I gathered from this was a big re-calibration in my understanding of how long it takes a battery to get warm from driving alone. That is to say, it takes a LOT of driving to get a battery pack up to optimum charging conditions even when it's only a little cool outside (only around 50F). I always assumed that an hour of driving would warm up the pack plenty, but that's clearly not the case judging by the Tesla's use of battery pre-conditioning across my recent charge stops. So I guess the take away is that winter mode on our Konas is indeed worth it if you're fast charging, and driving alone might never get you up to optimum temps depending on the circumstances.

 

[Wildeyed]

Hello, I am new to the forum and this is my first post. I have a 2019 Ultimate and love it. What is likely different from me to most forum members is that I live in an apartment and therefore depend on public chargers most of the time. I say most of the time because I also have access to my nephew's Level 2 charger, but that is about 5 km away, and not very convenient.

I am located in Kingston, Ontario Canada. While I usually use a FLO Level 2 charger for a couple of hours at a time, I also occasionally use the Petro-Canada Fast DC charger. Back in August of this year, the charger was running at over 70 kW which worked out to about 27¢ per kWh. However, this same charger is now running at about 40 kW. Not sure if this is a malfunction or if Petro-Canada has deliberately throttled back the power level.

Today, I tried out the newly installed Electric City fast charger in our area. I was dismayed that it too was operating at only 40 kW and quickly terminated the charging session.

I am now wondering the low charging power is somehow controlled by my Kona, rather than the public chargers? Would appreciate some feedback from some of you. Thanks.

.....Rickker

I'm near Kingston. Have you ever tried the one at the Royal Bank on Gardiner's Rd.? I haven't but wondered if it works properly.

 

[Rickker]

I'm near Kingston. Have you ever tried the one at the Royal Bank on Gardiner's Rd.? I haven't but wondered if it works properly.

Hey Wildeyed, I also have a 2019 Ultimate. It was the demo at Brockville Hyundai that they finally agreed to sell last July. It was the only Kona available in our area at the time. I sure did not want to order one and wait 9+ months for delivery.
No, haven't tried that one on Gardiners Rd. I have a FLO account, but use it mainly for Level 2 charging at the Kingston Memorial Centre where I take my sister for walks several times a week. This one usually operates at 7.1 kW, which works out to 22¢ per kWh which is pretty good for public chargers. I try to avoid the fast DC chargers as much as possible, as they are often a ripoff.

 

[ElectricArt]

Hello, I am new to the forum and this is my first post. I have a 2019 Ultimate and love it. What is likely different from me to most forum members is that I live in an apartment and therefore depend on public chargers most of the time. I say most of the time because I also have access to my nephew's Level 2 charger, but that is about 5 km away, and not very convenient.

I am located in Kingston, Ontario Canada. While I usually use a FLO Level 2 charger for a couple of hours at a time, I also occasionally use the Petro-Canada Fast DC charger. Back in August of this year, the charger was running at over 70 kW which worked out to about 27¢ per kWh. However, this same charger is now running at about 40 kW. Not sure if this is a malfunction or if Petro-Canada has deliberately throttled back the power level.

Today, I tried out the newly installed Electric City fast charger in our area. I was dismayed that it too was operating at only 40 kW and quickly terminated the charging session.

I am now wondering the low charging power is somehow controlled by my Kona, rather than the public chargers? Would appreciate some feedback from some of you. Thanks.

.....Rickker

I also have a 2019 Kona.
I just had the battery management system recall software update.
After the update I noticed that the DCFC charging rate drops by about 50% after you reach a 60% charge.
And then drops even more at about 65 to 70% charge.
Not happy about that.
I believe it’s a change in the software.
Because of the Konas that have caught on fire and burned.



Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs

 

[Rickker]

Hey ElectricArt, that could be, but it does not explain my situation. I also had the battery recall stuff done, on Nov. 18. But my problem with the Petro-Canada charger happened on Nov. 2. As I said earlier, this charger used to operate at 70 kW until at least 70% SOC and then drop off more and more. However, on Nov. 2, this same charger started at 40 kW as soon as I plugged in, then stayed at 40 kW until it shut down by itself at 50% SOC. I have a case file with Petro-Canada and they are still investigating. If you have read all the replies earlier in this thread, it may be the cause is due to lower temperatures. However, I did have Winter Mode enabled on Nov. 2, so I am having a hard time accepting this. I still believe that the subject charger was malfunctioning. If the problem (of low DCFF charging power) is entirely due to colder temperatures, does this mean that all users are paying almost twice as much to charge during the winter months?
BTW, what charger or charging network were you using? ......Rickker

 

[ElectricArt]

Hey ElectricArt, that could be, but it does not explain my situation. I also had the battery recall stuff done, on Nov. 18. But my problem with the Petro-Canada charger happened on Nov. 2. As I said earlier, this charger used to operate at 70 kW until at least 70% SOC and then drop off more and more. However, on Nov. 2, this same charger started at 40 kW as soon as I plugged in, then stayed at 40 kW until it shut down by itself at 50% SOC. I have a case file with Petro-Canada and they are still investigating. If you have read all the replies earlier in this thread, it may be the cause is due to lower temperatures. However, I did have Winter Mode enabled on Nov. 2, so I am having a hard time accepting this. I still believe that the subject charger was malfunctioning. If the problem (of low DCFF charging power) is entirely due to colder temperatures, does this mean that all users are paying almost twice as much to charge during the winter months?
BTW, what charger or charging network were you using? ......Rickker

In regards to your issue.
The charging rate dropping so much because of cold weather sounds extreme.
My DCFC charge was a non network charger at a auto dealership. 50kw.
Which used to charge at 45 kw. Until software update.


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