PHEVs/BEVs and the Environment

L

Lowell_Greenberg

Active Member
I am trying to better understand/compare lifetime CHG emissions between PHEV/BEV cars and petrol driven cars. Here are some thoughts open to discussion:

1. If the source of electricity is largely non-renewable, the CHG impact is substantially increased for PHEV/BEV.

2. Even if (1) above is true, the the typical lifetime CHG emissions of a PHEV/BEV is still somewhat less because of fuel transport emissions.

3. Production of the PHEV/Batteries produces significant CHG emissions that rises linearly with battery capacity. This is in part why a PHEV may for a substantial period and under certain daily driving scenarios produce less CHG gases than a BEV over a car's life.

4. While heavier cars may in certain cases mean safer, curb weight is a factor in environmental impact. A heavy Tesla or Cadillac PHEV/BEV can have more of an adverse environmental impact than a lightweight PHEV/HEV alternative.

5. If electric vehicles should increase rapidly in popularity, more strains will be placed on the power grid- creating rising energy costs. Further, if individual circumstances are such that home charging is not an option- using private charging stations can make a significant dent in individual cost savings

If the above is correct, the the decision to purchase a BEV/PHEV to reduce CHG emissions is not as simple as it seems. Public transportation becomes the best alternative in most cases. However in the US, public transportation is weak, necessitating private options. Unfortunately car pooling is not widely used, making private transport even more harmful. And in many cases employers are indifferent to CHG emissions- and weakly committed to work from home even if it is feasible.

If private transportation is necessary, and assuming the grid is powered by renewables- and in the case of PHEVs the daily commute falls largely in the car's battery range- and the car is engineered for safety and reliability-and one has access to a home charger and the cost of electricity is reasonable then a PHEV or BEV makes environmental and economic sense for consumers- factoring out the artificially low cost of gasoline in the US.

A lot of Its Ands and Buts.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 
Around town, our EV miles are half the cost of gas miles not counting the ‘free’ charging at stores and for the asking, at car dealers. That keeps my green in my wallet.

Bob Wilson
 
electriceddy said:
That, is exactly the most important fundamental objective.
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This.

Let's face it, a Toyota Prius PHEV is already cheaper to own & operate than any EV made. The case for EV cars to 'save the planet' is fraught with bad math when compared against efficient ICE vehicles, like the aforementioned.

However, huge numbers of government, fleet & law enforcement vehicles are based on the Yukon/ GM truck platform. 99% of them driving many hard miles 5+ days per week, returning to a central fueling location every evening, and currently all getting about 15 mpg. The opportunity for GM's EV FS vehicles to make meaningful reductions in tailpipe emissions and to save money, are HUGE. Well at least until a well-designed PHEV Yukon is released...
 
Suns_PSD said:
Let's face it, a Toyota Prius PHEV is already cheaper to own & operate than any EV made. The case for EV cars to 'save the planet' is fraught with bad math when compared against efficient ICE vehicles, like the aforementioned.
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Have you looked at the prices for the Prius Prime lately? They are usually more expensive then a standard range Model 3. The dealers around here are adding two to five thousand over MSRP if you can find one to buy.

There is one listed around here for over $47,000. I can buy a Model 3 long range out of inventory for less money, and that's not including the tax credit.
 
marshall said:
Have you looked at the prices for the Prius Prime lately? They are usually more expensive then a standard range Model 3. The dealers around here are adding two to five thousand over MSRP if you can find one to buy.

There is one listed around here for over $47,000. I can buy a Model 3 long range out of inventory for less money, and that's not including the tax credit.
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Often when demand is high, things will sell for above MSRP due to more demand than supply. This will in time, straighten itself out.

The fact remains that a Toyota Prius PHEV is: 1) cheaper to insure than an EV, 2) cheaper to register than an EV in many states including mine, 3) has higher resale value, 4) still qualifies for federal credits, 5) has a better long term reliability record, 6) can road trip with no additional stress, 7) doesn't use tires quickly the way all EVs do (which is a real pollution issue, 8) is better for the environment due to a much smaller battery pack, 9) doesn't get totaled nearly as easily as an EV, 9) can still operate as a very efficient car when/ if the batteries expires in it's second life which is better for the environment, 10) is safer for other road users as it's much lighter, 11) causes less road damage as it's lighter, 12) doesn't cause the same strain on Fire services when it ignites, 13) doesn't require the very expensive upgrades to the public utility grid, 14) doesn't require the home electricity upgrades and in fact most people can charge it just using a 110 volt, opening it up to renters, 15) doesn't cost any more to fuel than an EV, 16) I could go on.

Would also add that the most common EV's are spearheaded by a man with very questionable principles.

If you are comparing equivalent vehicles, a sedan EV is not any cheaper to operate than the best PHEV & it's not better for the environment and it's arguably much worse.

PHEV ARE the immediate future until battery packs make a giant leap combined with much better charging infrastructure.

Sorry but EV's are quickly becoming virtue signaling devices often for those of a certain socio-economic status that can afford a spare car as they aren't practical for the average American.

I too use to be all in on EV's but I don't drink that Koolaid any longer, even though I enjoy following the tech and seeing where it goes. To be clear, EV passenger cars are the future, they just aren't the present.

If I still kept a spare sports car I'd be all over the 'N' series Ioniq, but it would be for hauling *ss and being a hooligan. Not for saving money or the environment.
 
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We're allowed to see the same information, and reach different conclusions, so thank you for responding. There is no point in me going point by point to cover your responses, so I'll just hit a few.

Regarding the environment in particular, some studies have shown that EV's take about 250K miles to break even on their initial production emissions compared to an ICE. Keep in mind the average vehicle makes it to 200K miles as they usually get crashed/ stolen/ flooded/ etc by that point as they don't really wear out any longer by 200K, not even close really. This is before one even considers that 64% of America's electrical production comes from fossil fuels.

So, the real environmental 'advantage' of EVs comes about because they are highly efficient with the energy they use.

So now consider, a PHEV that is just as stingy with its energy usage as an EV but has 1/4th the battery pack size. The PHEV is so far ahead during production, to never allow the EV to catch up, simply because for the average American they can get by on the battery pack alone because as you pointed out, 37 miles is the daily driving average. With the added advantage of never running out of range or having to pay the exorbitant costs in money AND time, of remote charging. What do you think the environmental impact is of building (or not building) 1000's of charging stations?

The thing is about all EV's, is that we all want these huge battery packs because when we need range, we really need range. But in fact, 95% of the time we are carrying around a heavy, expensive, dangerous, environmentally catastrophic battery pack size. It makes more sense to 'right size' the battery pack at sub 80 miles, and then just have an ICE for unlimited range when needed. For many that ICE will only fire up 1x per week.

Furthermore, when it comes to larger vehicles, like the stuff GM is showing with 200+ kwh battery packs, is that 450+ miles of range are totally excessive most of the time yet is still inadequate when you need to tow or road trip in snow or whatever. So really huge battery packs don't really solve the range issue. PHEV does.

The only thing EV's do better really, is they are more luxurious and more exciting to drive, which is why they are perfect for wealthy people with multiple cars. But eventually PHEV's will utilize an EV drivetrain (the Ram EV is promising something like this) and so will have all of those great EV driving characteristics with a range extender ICE motor as well. And in fact these will far surpass EV's in drivability simply because they will weigh 1 ton less.
 
Excellent! I used to own a 2017 Prius Prime and have something to share:
Suns_PSD said:
The fact remains that a Toyota Prius PHEV is:
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  1. 1) cheaper to insure than an EV, - I carry only liability so insurance constant.
  2. 2) cheaper to register than an EV in many states including mine, - Alabama implemented the "hippy tax" and registration premium for both.
  3. 3) has higher resale value, - I got $18,300 trade-in that originally cost $29 k.
  4. 4) still qualifies for federal credits, - Not in 2017 when I bought mine.
  5. 5) has a better long term reliability record, - Model 3 has 115,000 mi and counting
  6. 6) can road trip with no additional stress, - Me too
  7. 7) doesn't use tires quickly the way all EVs do (which is a real pollution issue, - Replaced OEM tires with 60,000 mi rated Bridgestone ECOPIA ... still thick treads.
  8. 8) is better for the environment due to a much smaller battery pack, - No CO{2} or exhaust emissions
  9. 9) doesn't get totaled nearly as easily as an EV, 9) can still operate as a very efficient car when/ if the batteries expires in it's second life which is better for the environment, - I don't buy cars to crash.
  10. 10) is safer for other road users as it's much lighter, - Ever see the IIHS ratings? Prius Prime and Tesla Model 3
  11. 11) causes less road damage as it's lighter, - Measured 3,800 lbs on truck stop scales
  12. 12) doesn't cause the same strain on Fire services when it ignites, - I don't buy cars to burn.
  13. 13) doesn't require the very expensive upgrades to the public utility grid, - Utility rates have remained constant over +4 years
  14. 14) doesn't require the home electricity upgrades and in fact most people can charge it just using a 110 volt, opening it up to renters, - Charged everything from 110 VAC to 240 VAC and Superchargers 400 VDC
  15. 15) doesn't cost any more to fuel than an EV, - My Tesla is 1/3d the cost per mile, $0.02/mi, than the Prius Prime, $0.07/mi.
  16. 16) I could go on. - Me too as my EV is so much quieter than the engine drone and vibration. It also crosses intersections first, reaches the speed limit first, and gets lane choice.
Bob Wilson
 
Some pretty interesting responses to my points including:

1) I'm safer in an accident so who cares about others.
2) Gas engines apparently aren't reliable.
3) Charging on the road is just as easy as getting gas.
4) Random trade in numbers with a used 'new' price, with no consideration for actual depreciation.
5) Random mileage #, also ignoring actual reliability data.
6) Random weight number ignores the fact that EV's are heavier than comparable ICE cars.
7) Claims that Hybrids aren't eligible for tax rebates (they are) and then quotes model year prior to the IRA being passed.
8) Apparently doesn't believe that EV's ever get crashed or ignite, unintentionally. Which I guess explains only having liability insurance. So now you have to be a cash buyer too ruling out 95% of the population.
9) Often states 'not an issue for me' ignoring the fact that we are talking about the needs of many here, not just 1 person in their own little world. Narcissist much?
10) Assumes everyone in the country pays 8 cents per kwh for 100% of their charging.

If you like EV's like I do, awesome. But the points made in response to me aren't even logical.
 
Suns_PSD said:
We're allowed to see the same information, and reach different conclusions, so thank you for responding. There is no point in me going point by point to cover your responses, so I'll just hit a few.

Regarding the environment in particular, some studies have shown that EV's take about 250K miles to break even on their initial production emissions compared to an ICE. Keep in mind the average vehicle makes it to 200K miles as they usually get crashed/ stolen/ flooded/ etc by that point as they don't really wear out any longer by 200K, not even close really. This is before one even considers that 64% of America's electrical production comes from fossil fuels.

So, the real environmental 'advantage' of EVs comes about because they are highly efficient with the energy they use.

So now consider, a PHEV that is just as stingy with its energy usage as an EV but has 1/4th the battery pack size. The PHEV is so far ahead during production, to never allow the EV to catch up, simply because for the average American they can get by on the battery pack alone because as you pointed out, 37 miles is the daily driving average. With the added advantage of never running out of range or having to pay the exorbitant costs in money AND time, of remote charging. What do you think the environmental impact is of building (or not building) 1000's of charging stations?

The thing is about all EV's, is that we all want these huge battery packs because when we need range, we really need range. But in fact, 95% of the time we are carrying around a heavy, expensive, dangerous, environmentally catastrophic battery pack size. It makes more sense to 'right size' the battery pack at sub 80 miles, and then just have an ICE for unlimited range when needed. For many that ICE will only fire up 1x per week.

Furthermore, when it comes to larger vehicles, like the stuff GM is showing with 200+ kwh battery packs, is that 450+ miles of range are totally excessive most of the time yet is still inadequate when you need to tow or road trip in snow or whatever. So really huge battery packs don't really solve the range issue. PHEV does.

The only thing EV's do better really, is they are more luxurious and more exciting to drive, which is why they are perfect for wealthy people with multiple cars. But eventually PHEV's will utilize an EV drivetrain (the Ram EV is promising something like this) and so will have all of those great EV driving characteristics with a range extender ICE motor as well. And in fact these will far surpass EV's in drivability simply because they will weigh 1 ton less.
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You makes some good points here and I appreciate the thoughtful articulation of your facts/opinions. But I would like to see more explanation of the environmental impacts of BEV cars. In particular that it takes 250K miles to break even on their initial production emissions compared to an ICE car. I have seen so many discussion on this, and TBH I don't know what to believe.
 
R P said:
You makes some good points here and I appreciate the thoughtful articulation of your facts/opinions. But I would like to see more explanation of the environmental impacts of BEV cars. In particular that it takes 250K miles to break even on their initial production emissions compared to an ICE car. I have seen so many discussion on this, and TBH I don't know what to believe.
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I'm in agreement with you in that I don't know what to believe when it comes to the environmental studies. For a while we heard all sorts of studies touting the benefits of EV's for the environment, now some are coming out saying otherwise.

At the least calculating the true toll of a full EV conversion is essential impossible because of all the other factors that are complicated to consider (i.e. charging stations, electrical grids, etc) where-as at the most every study is corrupted intentionally by personal prejudices and moneyed sponsors.

But we can all see, with no study needed, that a majority of people are not going to save money owning an EV. Given that's the case, the quickest way to reduce tailpipe emissions is the widespread implementation of hybrids because they are more affordable and very importantly, more flexible.
 
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Well, we do know that Toyota supports your argument. But again, I don't know where/how they come up with their facts.
They recently published this document aimed at their dealers that includes these statements.
https://insideevs.com/news/668040/t...ds-even-if-fully-commited-to-electrification/
The maker of the Prius and bZ4x mentions the so-called 1:6:90 rule:
“The amount of raw materials in one long-range battery electric vehicle could instead be used to make six plug-in hybrid electric vehicles or 90 hybrid electric vehicles,” reads the dealer document published by Jalopnik.
In addition, Toyota states that the overall carbon reduction of those 90 hybrids over their lifetime is 37 times as much as a single battery electric vehicle.
 
Suns_PSD said:
We're allowed to see the same information, and reach different conclusions, so thank you for responding. There is no point in me going point by point to cover your responses, so I'll just hit a few.

Regarding the environment in particular, some studies have shown that EV's take about 250K miles to break even on their initial production emissions compared to an ICE. Keep in mind the average vehicle makes it to 200K miles as they usually get crashed/ stolen/ flooded/ etc by that point as they don't really wear out any longer by 200K, not even close really. This is before one even considers that 64% of America's electrical production comes from fossil fuels.

See

https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...lectric-vehicles-vs-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/


https://news.umich.edu/study-greate...ification-than-for-other-light-duty-vehicles/


So, the real environmental 'advantage' of EVs comes about because they are highly efficient with the energy they use.

Around here electrical energy is significantly cheaper than $5 a gallon gas. Plus we use very little fossil fuel to generate electricity, mainly hydroelectric. Only a tiny amount of green house gases are emitted with renewable energy.


So now consider, a PHEV that is just as stingy with its energy usage as an EV but has 1/4th the battery pack size. The PHEV is so far ahead during production, to never allow the EV to catch up, simply because for the average American they can get by on the battery pack alone because as you pointed out, 37 miles is the daily driving average. With the added advantage of never running out of range or having to pay the exorbitant costs in money AND time, of remote charging. What do you think the environmental impact is of building (or not building) 1000's of charging stations?

Again have you looked at the price of a Toyota Prius? I can buy a Model 3 for less money.

Once again, our gas prices are $5 a gallon!!!! One can charge at a local public L2 charger and pay 21 cents a kWh. At 21 cents a kWh, that's cheaper than $5 a gallon gas.

This range anxiety is way, way over blown. You are never going to run out if you drive 37mile a day unless you just forget to charge the vehicle. The time to charge is over blown too. If want charging reliability, you buy a Tesla. Plus 120 volt outlets are available everywhere.



The thing is about all EV's, is that we all want these huge battery packs because when we need range, we really need range. But in fact, 95% of the time we are carrying around a heavy, expensive, dangerous, environmentally catastrophic battery pack size. It makes more sense to 'right size' the battery pack at sub 80 miles, and then just have an ICE for unlimited range when needed. For many that ICE will only fire up 1x per week. So you are just exchanging an underused gas engine for an underused battery. In my case, that underused gas engine has been costing me $500 a year for the last two years in repairs, and worst of all it would have left me stranded three times if I hadn't been close enough to make it on the traction battery. I have had no issues with the BEV portion of the car.

So in my experience the reliability of the BEV vehicle looks a lot better than the PHEV.

Furthermore, when it comes to larger vehicles, like the stuff GM is showing with 200+ kwh battery packs, is that 450+ miles of range are totally excessive most of the time yet is still inadequate when you need to tow or road trip in snow or whatever. So really huge battery packs don't really solve the range issue. PHEV does. Big vehicles are excessive, but folks are willing to buy them. Do you want the government to ban them, or is it better to just carry a large battery around all the time?

The only thing EV's do better really, is they are more luxurious and more exciting to drive, which is why they are perfect for wealthy people with multiple cars. I don't know your definition of wealth, but cars in general are expensive, including the Prius. I've seen 10 year car loans, yikes!

The good news is that some of these BEVs are entering the used car market. A used 2018 Nissan Leaf is a very, very good buy, especially if you can use the tax credit. This is only going to get better as time goes on.

Note that California offers a very generous amount of money for low income folks to buy a BEV.

But eventually PHEV's will utilize an EV drivetrain (the Ram EV is promising something like this) and so will have all of those great EV driving characteristics with a range extender ICE motor as well. And in fact these will far surpass EV's in drivability simply because they will weigh 1 ton less. I will have to agree to disagree.
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Hopefully things have calmed down. From my 63 mph benchmarks on a Standard Day:
  • 88 mi premium gas range - 2.3 gal, $3.75/gal, $8.63 (8/22/2023), BMW i3-REx
  • 106 mi EV range - 28 kWh, $0.12/kWh, $3.36 (retail home), BMW i3-REx
  • 215 mi EV range - 48 kWh, $0.12/kWh, $5.76 (retail home), Tesla Model 3
So now we can calculate the cost per 100 miles:
  • $4.26 / 100 mi (100%) - premium gas, BMW i3-REx
  • $3.17 / 100 mi ( 74%) - EV, BMW i3-REx
  • $2.68 / 100 mi ( 63%) - EV, Tesla Model 3
Why would I choose to drive the BMW around town, short trips, versus the cheaper Tesla:
  • 16.2 ft vs 19.4 ft turn radius - the BMW is more maneuverable
  • 74% vs 63% relative costs - the BMW is only 11% more expensive
Why would I choose to drive the Tesla outside of town versus BMW i3-REx:
  • Autopilot+Full Self Driving vs dumb cruise control - the Tesla is much easier on the driver
  • 63% vs 100% relative costs - the Tesla is much cheaper versus gas for BMW i3-REx
So what is the practical effect on out of town range:
upload_2023-8-22_21-46-58.webp

The red circle is the 88 mi gas range of the BMW i3-REx. The blue circle is the Model 3 EV range. In practice, the BMW segments between truck stops is ~77 mi and the Model 3 charging ~150 mi. The BMW needs twice as many fuel stops, !0 min each, and the Tesla, 20 minutes. So the block-to-block time is awash.

Due to higher electric rates at Superchargers, the Tesla cost per mile is only a little lower than the BMW. But in terms of driver fatigue and safety, the Tesla wins hands down.

Bob Wilson
 
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Suns_PSD said:
But we can all see, with no study needed, that a majority of people are not going to save money owning an EV.
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Until maintenance costs are factored in, at which point it becomes a question of duration of ownership. How many kWh can be purchased for the cost of one oil change? Not to mention all of the ICE parts that need replacing over time.
 
Puppethead said:
Until maintenance costs are factored in, at which point it becomes a question of duration of ownership. How many kWh can be purchased for the cost of one oil change? Not to mention all of the ICE parts that need replacing over time.
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I've had my Hyundai Kona EV for nearly three and a half years and the only repair/maintenance expense I've had is replacing a windshield wiper blade. I've never had that experience with the seven eight ICE cars I owned previously.
 
Another thing to add to the mix is PV production. I added PV to my house last year in preparation of a future PHEV or BEV. Plugging in the day would send the excess energy to the battery instead of down the grid. In 10 months I have have reduced the co2 emissions by 2,500 kg (5,511lb), this is with a fairly clean power generation with a mix of hydro, solar, nuclear and gas production (Hydro One).
 
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