Our EV purchase

[Recoil45]

It didn't happen.

I came here to learn/follow the Mach-launch.

I like the concept/tech but we need to drive a not-an-econobox, hate Tesla (political reasons), so when the Mach-e came out I thought I could steer my wife to it as a replacement for her BMW. We test drove it and did not enjoy driving it all. A conventional Audi Q5 has now replaced her BMW.

So this is sort of a goodby. I know I have quite the opposing opinion here so will do my best to stop commenting on posts (will happen occasionally), despite the fact that we have several EV owners here who venture over to ICE (a term I hate) forums to harass us with their "religion".

Best of luck and enjoy your EV for whatever reason you own one.


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[Fastnf]

It didn't happen.

I came here to learn/follow the Mach-launch.

I like the concept/tech but we need to drive a not-an-econobox, hate Tesla (political reasons), so when the Mach-e came out I thought I could steer my wife to it as a replacement for her BMW. We test drove it and did not enjoy driving it all. A conventional Audi Q5 has now replaced her BMW.

So this is sort of a goodby. I know I have quite the opposing opinion here so will do my best to stop commenting on posts (will happen occasionally), despite the fact that we have several EV owners here who venture over to ICE (a term I hate) forums to harass us with their "religion".

Best of luck and enjoy your EV for whatever reason you own one.


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Thanks for your posts and comments. Seeing all points of views adds to the quality of discussions. I am sorry you didn’t find an EV that suited your needs. Perhaps you will in the future.

 

[miatadan]

Reason to own EV

1. Less expensive than gas to refuel
2. Smoothness as no vibration from drivetrain with a lot less moving parts
3. Full torque from zero and better performance than majority of ICE vehicles
4. In my case, thinking stereo will sound better as no engine noise or exhaust to over ride

Maybe your wife would have liked the Audi Q4 etron but not available yet

I drove the Mach-E but will wait until VW ID4 available in my area and I prefer Audi, VW, Porsche , BMW over most other brands.

No one should harass you with their opinion. Always appreciated your discussions, opinions.

Wish you the best in the future and happy both you and wife found vehicle you are happy with

Dan

 

[Clamps]

So this is sort of a goodby. I know I have quite the opposing opinion here so will do my best to stop commenting on posts (will happen occasionally), despite the fact that we have several EV owners here who venture over to ICE (a term I hate) forums to harass us with their "religion".

Best of luck and enjoy your EV for whatever reason you own one.

I still think EV ownership is still too new to satisfy the needs of traditional auto ownership for some. It’s amazing how far it’s come in a short time. I don’t know for sure if it will ever replace ICE vehicles (I think they will or some other tech) but it will achieve parity, that I’m certain of.

The Q5 is a great a SUV, we own a 2015 model and it is a pleasure to drive, particularly on a long road trip. Hope you guys enjoy the new car.

If you are still curious about EV’s I hope you stick around, nothing wrong with asking challenging questions.

One last thing. I don’t understand the anti Tesla/political angle but I am curious. If you think it’s too inflammatory to post on the forum I get that. Otherwise if you’re inclined send me a PM about it, just very curious.

 

[R P]

I like hearing from non-EV owners to better understand their thinking and respect their counter arguments to some of the unrealistic EV evangelists on this forum. I consider myself an EV enthusiast and supporter, but do recognize there are still many challenges to overcome before they can become mainstream. Hopefully, the dialog may open some minds, and perhaps help with EV buying choices and decisions.

 

[Recoil45]

One last thing. I don’t understand the anti Tesla/political angle but I am curious. If you think it’s too inflammatory to post on the forum I get that. Otherwise if you’re inclined send me a PM about it, just very curious.

The below items are what I take issue with regarding Tesla. It's not a company I will ever do business with as a result.


https://www.greencarreports.com/new...er-taxes-on-gas-and-diesel-vehicles-in-the-uk

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/...sions-penalties-as-credits-may-drop-in-value/

https://www.barrons.com/articles/wh...atter-for-tesla-and-nio-investors-51607864401


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[bwilson4web]

It's [TSLA rjw] not a company I will ever do business

Regardless, enjoy your self-imposed limitations.

Bob Wilson

 

[Clamps]

The below items are what I take issue with regarding Tesla. It's not a company I will ever do business with as a result.


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While not condoning Tesla’s lobbying behavior isn’t it true that all auto makers lobby governments for advantages to their businesses?

 

[Recoil45]

While not condoning Tesla’s lobbying behavior isn’t it true that all auto makers lobby governments for advantages to their businesses?

Any examples where an auto maker successfully lobbied government to force a competitor to pay them massive amounts of money?


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[bwilson4web]

Any examples where an auto maker successfully lobbied government to force a competitor to pay them massive amounts of money?

Any examples of auto makers poisoning our people?

Source: https://timeline.com/la-smog-pollution-4ca4bc0cc95d

L.A.’s mid-century smog was so bad, people thought it was a gas attack​

Bob Wilson

 

[Clamps]

Any examples where an auto maker successfully lobbied government to force a competitor to pay them massive amounts of money?


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I found this interesting and if I’m reading it right the AAM (the auto manufacturers lobbying group) also lobbied for more tax credits instead of fleet fuel efficiency improvements.

“In May 2017, AAM urged the US Senate to support a bill to ensure further CAFE-GHG program harmonization. The bill would, in effect, relax CAFE standard programme stringency by awarding increased program credits to automakers, without requiring increased fuel-saving technologies. The AAM supported a similar bill in the US House of Representatives in October of this year.”

So if I’m reading this correctly, not only was Tesla lobbying for increased tax credits but so were the other auto manufacturers.

The lengthier post is here and it is far broader summary.
https://influencemap.org/site/data/000/303/Auto_Lobbying_COP23_Nov_2017.pdf

 

[Earl]

It didn't happen.

I came here to learn/follow the Mach-launch.

I like the concept/tech but we need to drive a not-an-econobox, hate Tesla (political reasons), so when the Mach-e came out I thought I could steer my wife to it as a replacement for her BMW. We test drove it and did not enjoy driving it all. A conventional Audi Q5 has now replaced her BMW.

So this is sort of a goodby. I know I have quite the opposing opinion here so will do my best to stop commenting on posts (will happen occasionally), despite the fact that we have several EV owners here who venture over to ICE (a term I hate) forums to harass us with their "religion".

Best of luck and enjoy your EV for whatever reason you own one.

I can't say I'm sad to see you go. I don't really need people who

need to drive a not-an-econobox

Sadly, I guess I'll have to breath fumes the fumes from your gas guzzler and fight wars over oil going forward until you and your ilk finally realize that you are just being played.

There, sadly, is only one disruptive force (with all of its warts, blemishes, and enemies) that's really trying to solve the problem. The rest are apparently doing a good job at driving some people away from EVs.

Regarding ZEV subsidies: I guess you did buy your car from a cheater so I suppose it won't bother you that they are also boneheaded fools that would rather squander available ZEV subsidies or give money to their competitors rather than make compelling EVs.

Have fun hating Tesla and other EVs while you're standing at the gas station as I'm driving past you with a full tank of electrons I got at home.

See you in my rear-view mirror.

 

[Recoil45]

I can't say I'm sad to see you go. I don't really need people who


Sadly, I guess I'll have to breath fumes the fumes from your gas guzzler and fight wars over oil going forward until you and your ilk finally realize that you are just being played.

There, sadly, is only one disruptive force (with all of its warts, blemishes, and enemies) that's really trying to solve the problem. The rest are apparently doing a good job at driving some people away from EVs.

Regarding ZEV subsidies: I guess you did buy your car from a cheater so I suppose it won't bother you that they are also boneheaded fools that would rather squander available ZEV subsidies or give money to their competitors rather than make compelling EVs.

Have fun hating Tesla and other EVs while you're standing at the gas station as I'm driving past you with a full tank of electrons I got at home.

See you in my rear-view mirror.

LMAO.


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[Recoil45]

I found this interesting and if I’m reading it right the AAM (the auto manufacturers lobbying group) also lobbied for more tax credits instead of fleet fuel efficiency improvements.

“In May 2017, AAM urged the US Senate to support a bill to ensure further CAFE-GHG program harmonization. The bill would, in effect, relax CAFE standard programme stringency by awarding increased program credits to automakers, without requiring increased fuel-saving technologies. The AAM supported a similar bill in the US House of Representatives in October of this year.”

So if I’m reading this correctly, not only was Tesla lobbying for increased tax credits but so were the other auto manufacturers.

The lengthier post is here and it is far broader summary.
https://influencemap.org/site/data/000/303/Auto_Lobbying_COP23_Nov_2017.pdf

I'll read up more on this. On the surface it seems it could have been a way to soften the financial blow of the 50mpg CAFE requirement that was being pushed around that time.


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[miatadan]

I do not see issue with this:

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...er-taxes-on-gas-and-diesel-vehicles-in-the-uk

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/...sions-penalties-as-credits-may-drop-in-value/

More countries should ban new sales of ICE vehicles from 2030

https://www.just-auto.com/news/uk-government-confirms-2030-ice-ban_id198828.aspx

not be like Canada waiting to 2040

https://thedriven.io/2020/11/12/the-countries-and-states-leading-the-phase-out-of-fossil-fuel-cars/

Dan

 

[Recoil45]

I do not see issue with this:

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...er-taxes-on-gas-and-diesel-vehicles-in-the-uk

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/...sions-penalties-as-credits-may-drop-in-value/

More countries should ban new sales of ICE vehicles from 2030

https://www.just-auto.com/news/uk-government-confirms-2030-ice-ban_id198828.aspx

not be like Canada waiting to 2040

https://thedriven.io/2020/11/12/the-countries-and-states-leading-the-phase-out-of-fossil-fuel-cars/

Dan

Or we could let the free market decide based on consumer preference. aka Capitalism.


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[Earl]

Or we could let the free market decide based on consumer preference. aka Capitalism.

At the risk of agreeing with you:
I've been trying to figure out how to get EVs into the market since the early 1990's. Unfortunately, through what I'll refer to as crony capitalism, the incumbent auto and oil industry have lobbied and gotten government subsidies and protections that prop them up as the status quo that they control. There is no free-market here.
Specifically:
There are huge subsidies and tax breaks for oil and oil investments.
The auto industry, rather than ever do anything good as far as safety or pollution, instead, insist that the federal government pass laws mandating it. While on the face, this looks good, however, each law just adds cost burdens upon anyone trying to enter the market, creating huge barriers to entry. In other words, one must build a perfect car, from the beginning, or not bother. This means that it takes many $billions to make an affordable car that can legally be sold.
Even worse, most states have laws that prohibit direct sales of automobiles except through dealers who make their money from service. This, of course creates severe conflicts of interest that lead many dealers to steer customers away from electrics and toward service-hungry gasoline vehicles (I didn't use "ICE", the "term you hate").
When GM first showed that an EV is viable with modern technology, they refused to even talk about manufacturing them until the ZEV mandate was passed. Now, ironically, you're using it against Tesla, the only company who didn't ask for it and doesn't depend on it but, rather, wisely takes advantage of it to help accelerate their growth.
This legal, non-free market, makes it almost impossible for an alternative to be developed. With but a small amount of government support and huge amounts of free-market support, Tesla has actually managed to claw their way over the entry barriers.
I fear that you've been mislead by the press and missed the lop-sided realities of EVs and Tesla, most importantly. Sure, there are a lot of socialists and liberals who are pushing for EVs. I can't confirm or deny whether Tesla may have lobbied for a few favorable laws, however, there are many laws that hinder Tesla as well.
It's unfortunate how we seem to have the same basic philosophy on life, yet we see Tesla do differently. I see them as the company who, mostly through free-market, managed to make it while you see them as government pork.
Personally, I'd prefer that there be a lot fewer protectionist laws so there could really be a free market, however, most Americans don't seem to agree with me any more.

 

[SouthernDude]

I still think EV ownership is still too new to satisfy the needs of traditional auto ownership for some. It’s amazing how far it’s come in a short time. I don’t know for sure if it will ever replace ICE vehicles (I think they will or some other tech) but it will achieve parity, that I’m certain of.

The Q5 is a great a SUV, we own a 2015 model and it is a pleasure to drive, particularly on a long road trip. Hope you guys enjoy the new car.

If you are still curious about EV’s I hope you stick around, nothing wrong with asking challenging questions.

One last thing. I don’t understand the anti Tesla/political angle but I am curious. If you think it’s too inflammatory to post on the forum I get that. Otherwise if you’re inclined send me a PM about it, just very curious.

I personally don’t want to buy a Tesla now because I see it as Spyware. I don’t want to allow some large company to collect information on me and do who knows what with it. I don’t care what the privacy policy says now, I guarantee that crap is being done with peoples’ information and nobody is aware of it.

I also don’t want to be potentially locked out of my car because someone decides to target me for some reason. I’ve seen to many examples of people being locked out of services for essentially standard political views. Why would Tesla magically be exempt from this behavior?

I do not trust any company that is trying to build some hyper proprietary ecosystem that doesn’t allow for any freedom of choice. Tesla seems to be the worst car company at doing this.

Thats why I don’t really trust Tesla.

I still think EV ownership is still too new to satisfy the needs of traditional auto ownership for some. It’s amazing how far it’s come in a short time. I don’t know for sure if it will ever replace ICE vehicles (I think they will or some other tech) but it will achieve parity, that I’m certain of.

The Q5 is a great a SUV, we own a 2015 model and it is a pleasure to drive, particularly on a long road trip. Hope you guys enjoy the new car.

If you are still curious about EV’s I hope you stick around, nothing wrong with asking challenging questions.

One last thing. I don’t understand the anti Tesla/political angle but I am curious. If you think it’s too inflammatory to post on the forum I get that. Otherwise if you’re inclined send me a PM about it, just very curious.

 

[Earl]

I personally don’t want to buy a Tesla now because I see it as Spyware. I don’t want to allow some large company to collect information on me and do who knows what with it. I don’t care what the privacy policy says now, I guarantee that crap is being done with peoples’ information and nobody is aware of it.

I have to agree with you there to some degree. I hope you don't own an Android device, a Chromebook, Amazon Echo, subscribe to Facebook, use anything by Google, smart TV, Roku, smart home devices, Android Auto, etc. as they're even worse. With them, you aren't the customer, you're the product they are selling to others. At least with Tesla (and Apple to some extent), they rely on you buying expensive products from them so they can't shaft you completely.
You can supposedly turn off data sharing in your Tesla. I have to do so when I, on occasion, have to drive into sensitive areas where photography is prohibited. I don't know what would happen if you turned data sharing off altogether. You certainly wouldn't get OTA updates but maybe that would be better?

I also don’t want to be potentially locked out of my car because someone decides to target me for some reason. I’ve seen to many examples of people being locked out of services for essentially standard political views. Why would Tesla magically be exempt from this behavior?

That's possibly a legitimate concern and, unfortunately, pretty much all cars and things (ever heard of IOT?) are or are going that way. The only reason Tesla is a bigger threat is that they're the only car company competent in modern technology.

I do not trust any company that is trying to build some hyper proprietary ecosystem that doesn’t allow for any freedom of choice.

I actually see their proprietary ecosystem as a benefit. It is harder to hack than an open-source one in which adversaries can access the system to find weaknesses. As far as freedom of choice: this is necessary for reliability since you know there won't be untested software written my some bozo running on it. I would rather that the car be a car and let my toys be my toys and not try to mix the two.

Tesla seems to be the worst car company at doing this.

Are they the worst or the best? The rest can't do anything that was developed since 1960 very well, therefore, they have to let others do the modern stuff for them. Tesla has access to the best in the Si Valley. As I mentioned earlier though, from an external security perspective, I prefer the proprietary stuff since it has fewer attack surfaces and poses far less information to enable looking weaknesses. Inside info is only vulnerable to a bad actor inside Tesla, not any schmuck anywhere in the world who has an Android or Apple phone. It is mostly only vulnerable to external probing.

 

[Recoil45]

Now, ironically, you're using it against Tesla, the only company who didn't ask for it and doesn't depend on it

I can't confirm or deny whether Tesla may have lobbied for a few favorable laws, however, there are many laws that hinder Tesla as well.

Tesla did ask for unfair advantages and continues to do so both in the US and other countries. This is my issue with Buying their product.

And Tesla certainly did rely on this income source (and likely still do). Losing some of this income source is one of the reasons they citing in their latest lobbying effort for new laws that benefit them.

I cited the sources. I guess you didn't read through the links posted?


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