Ontario owners: how long does it take to receive the government rebate?

[Jbird75]

Using Tesla case is very weak...

Tesla is the manufacturer, they were notified when government cancelled the program. When Tesla called MTO to get more information, they were told "Never mind, you are not included since you don't have a 'Franchised dealer network in Ontario'. Tesla was always in the EV Rebate program and was excluded deliberately. Therefore, in the judge decision, no mention of "being on a dealer's order list" was quoted.

The initial criteria was "Vehicles are on Dealer's lot, or in order for transit to dealer" or something similar, again, this was to prevent other EV cars that weren't SOLD in other provinces or even in the states to by September to suddenly shown up in Ontario to qualify for the rebate. That is exactly one of the cases where someone get a car from Quebec and bring it to Ontario. That car wasn't on the list.

I just wondering why other manufacturers/dealers have no problem providing the list except VW. MTO has a very strong point there. General public won't care and actually many people support the government in cancelling the rebate. The reasoning is why do I subsidize those people with $14,000 of my hard earned money to buy a car. And if someone find out someone gets the rebate through the back door, they would wondering 'Why government don't ask for a list'.

I am playing Devil Advocate, I know.

It's completely reasonable that the government ask for proof that a car was eligible for the incentive. I don't want the government handing out cheques willy nilly either lol!

But to play devil's advocate to your devil's advocate, why is a vehicle being on a specific list the only acceptable proof that the vehicle was eligible for the incentive? In our initial discussion with our MPP, she suggested that we obtain the shipping and receipt slips from our dealer as reasonable proof that our vehicle was ordered in time, and I was optimistic that would be accepted as reasonable proof of eligibility (it wasn't). That's really the part of this that makes me angry with the MTO. After the fact, they made a new, very restrictive eligibility criteria, that may have been missed for many vehicles due to inadvertent human error (by a third party mind you), and they are not providing the applicants (the first party) with any opportunity to remedy the error.

 

[Jason1234]

If I were you guys, I will setup a meeting ASAP among yourselves to plan out the next course of action instead of arguing with a stranger about whether it is fair or not. After that, the logical next step to setup a meeting with Yorkdale VW. You see, Yorkdale VW said they had sent out the list to MTO; but judging from the thread here, they haven't talk to MTO at all. In today's technology, if you had sent out an email, it will be somewhere, in your backup, your email archive, your salesman email sent folder etc. If VW had sent out the notice to Yorkdale VW, they should have the proof.

I am just trying to provide some of the questions that the judge, or whoever, will ask like

1/ Why Yorkdale is the one of the few that had problem providing the list
2/ Why some VW buyers are in the list but not you?

Of course, we all know the dealer is not willing to take the loss of $14,000; and I think everyone thinks that the MTO can and should... But until you guys get together to plan out the action, nothing will happen.

 

[CWilson]

The PCs are making it harder to sue the government https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...st-the-crown-act-repeal-replace-pcs-1.5097205

 

[Gill36]

So clearly VW Yorkdale (and VW Canada) is guilty of mis-representation when they sold eGolf between July 17 , 2018 to September 11 ,2018 by telling their customers , in writing and orally, that the vehicle satisfied all EHVIP cancelled program requirements- which was not true since they had failed to send the list in the prescribed time.They are liable and need to compensate each and everyone for $14,000.

Agree also purchased from Yorkdale all I I get is that above my pay grade and senior management working on it. Seam at MTO similarly told me they were waiting on documentation from Yorkdale. Despite everything they are saying I think they dropped the ball big time!. Hoping we will all go away.

 

[Mikep00]

Two points to bring up in your fight with MTO for the rebate.

1. Where on the rebate application does it list the requirement about your car being on a list to qualify?

2. The incentive program and rebate relate to an agreement between 2 parties: you, the purchaser of the vehicle, and the government who offered the rebate. The dealer is not a party to the agreement so the performance of the agreement cannot be dependent on actions of parties outside the agreement.

This is basic contract law 101.


Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs

 

[wootwo]

Two points to bring up in your fight with MTO for the rebate.

1. Where on the rebate application does it list the requirement about your car being on a list to qualify?

2. The incentive program and rebate relate to an agreement between 2 parties: you, the purchaser of the vehicle, and the government who offered the rebate. The dealer is not a party to the agreement so the performance of the agreement cannot be dependent on actions of parties outside the agreement.

This is basic contract law 101.

Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs

I agree it's the MTO who's to blame here. I'm not happy that Downtown VW messed up, of course, but eligibility for this rebate should not hinge on whether a third party compiled a list correctly. This is why I'm confident that a legal action against the government could be successful. Whoever's putting this together, sign me up!

Conversations with the Ombud's office have not been encouraging. I lost count of the times I was told that they have no powers of enforcement, which felt very much like expectation-setting on their part.

The most recent 2096E Guide says "Vehicles ordered on or prior to July 11, 2018 or were on an Ontario lot are eligible for an incentive..."

I read this as vehicle orders from any jurisdiction that were done prior to July 11, 2018 or vehicles on Ontario lots.

Please let me know if you read this differently.

Agree this was ambiguous. I had an opportunity to buy a car from a dealer in Quebec and luckily called MTO to confirm whether out-of-province cars would be eligible. They told me no so I left it.

 

[Mikep00]

FYI, the Ombudsman genuinely has no power to enforce. They say their piece but if the area refuses to take action the Ombudsman cannot force action.

I would suggest small claims rather than a larger legal action. Class action will net you less than your $14k in your pocket and take a long time.

Small claims will cost you peanuts, you don’t have to be as “legalese” to win your case (just be able to present an argument with logic and reason).


Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs

 

[Jason1234]

Two points to bring up in your fight with MTO for the rebate.

1. Where on the rebate application does it list the requirement about your car being on a list to qualify?

2. The incentive program and rebate relate to an agreement between 2 parties: you, the purchaser of the vehicle, and the government who offered the rebate. The dealer is not a party to the agreement so the performance of the agreement cannot be dependent on actions of parties outside the agreement.

This is basic contract law 101.


Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs

Contract Law 101, Lol. I seriously hope you are not a lawyer.

There is NO CONTRACT between you and the government. Did government signed on the contract that you have between your dealer and yourself?

This is an application not a contract or agreement. When u apply, you agree to the conditions outlined, and the rebate is not guaranteed. It even said it can be changed without notice. So ‘list’ is something that is changed and can be done without notice to you.

You are applying for EHVIP, and as such, you agree to

2. You agree that:

a) you will abide by allthe terms, conditions, instructions and notices set out in the EHVIP Guide.

b) the province of Ontario may conduct audits and/or investigations to confirm that you have met and are meeting all EHVIP


requirements.

c) all decisions made by the Province of Ontario relating to EHVIP, including applicant and vehicle eligibility and the incentive


amount, are final and binding and can not be appealed.

funding for EHVIP is subject to appropriation from the legislature and is not guaranteed for any specific applicant.

the program may be changed or cancelled by the Province of Ontario at any time for any reason whatsoever, without
notice.

 

[Jason1234]

Sadly, because it is a application, it behaves exactly like one. That is, you can apply and may be eligible, but government of Ontario does not HAVE to ACCEPT your application, and no reason is needed, it is solely at her discretion; and you agree to it when you apply. You can file your claim in small claim court, but I don't think you can go too further, because it is a application, not a legally binding agreement.

Just like an application for employment, there may be 3 available positions, but the employer is not obligated to fill out any of them, even though there are hundreds of qualified applicants; and no reason needs to be given.

That's why you guys should go after Yorkdale VW, they are the one that mislead you guys, and they are the one that sell you the goods. You have a sales agreement (contract) with them.

 

[Jbird75]

Sadly, because it is a application, it behaves exactly like one. That is, you can apply and may be eligible, but government of Ontario does not HAVE to ACCEPT your application, and no reason is needed, it is solely at her discretion; and you agree to it when you apply. You can file your claim in small claim court, but I don't think you can go too further, because it is a application, not a legally binding agreement.

Just like an application for employment, there may be 3 available positions, but the employer is not obligated to fill out any of them, even though there are hundreds of qualified applicants; and no reason needs to be given.

That's why you guys should go after Yorkdale VW, they are the one that mislead you guys, and they are the one that sell you the goods. You have a sales agreement (contract) with them.

The government is still subject to the rule of law, and they can say whatever they want on the fine print of an application, but there is a duty of fairness that overrides. This is not the same as a job application. This is a government incentive that the government led people to believe they qualified for. If you were expecting a $14,000 tax refund, and the government told you "So sorry, we decided we aren't giving tax refunds to people named Jason this year", would you fight it, or say "Oh well, it's the government, they can do whatever they want"?

No one knows who would win in small claims court, but I think the correct course of action, if someone is going to sue, would be to name multiple defendants: the dealer, the manufacturer, and the MTO in any claim.

 

[Jason1234]

The government is still subject to the rule of law, and they can say whatever they want on the fine print of an application, but there is a duty of fairness that overrides. This is not the same as a job application. This is a government incentive that the government led people to believe they qualified for. If you were expecting a $14,000 tax refund, and the government told you "So sorry, we decided we aren't giving tax refunds to people named Jason this year", would you fight it, or say "Oh well, it's the government, they can do whatever they want"?

No one knows who would win in small claims court, but I think the correct course of action, if someone is going to sue, would be to name multiple defendants: the dealer, the manufacturer, and the MTO in any claim.

You cannot compare apple to orange.

Tax Refund is actually your money, you just prepay the tax at source, and you give it to the government interest free, at tax time, you get a refund of YOUR money. Rebate is not your money, it is from that green program whatever you call it. When you apply, you agree to the terms and conditions and it doesn't have to be fair. Case in point is with Federal government now setup the new EV program and deliberately exclude Tesla. Tesla is a major player in EV, and if they include Tesla, most of the money will go to them. You exclude them because they are too BIG. Again, if you car and model is not on that list, you don't qualified. Nothing to do with the rule of LAW.

The terms and conditions are not in FINE print, it is actually front and center, and by signing the application, you agree to the conditions. I suspect that may be less than 20 people that are in that situation, and no "Meeting of Mind" is happening. Not even a gathering of those affected in Tim Horton, what can you said.

I also find it very funny is it seems only you and I are actively engaged in the debate, may be because you and I both get the rebate, and we are not emotional, or may be something else. In any case, I will leave the discussion now, and I won't be actively involved any more. Good luck to you guys.

 

[Jbird75]

You cannot compare apple to orange.

Tax Refund is actually your money, you just prepay the tax at source, and you give it to the government interest free, at tax time, you get a refund of YOUR money. Rebate is not your money, it is from that green program whatever you call it. When you apply, you agree to the terms and conditions and it doesn't have to be fair. Case in point is with Federal government now setup the new EV program and deliberately exclude Tesla. Tesla is a major player in EV, and if they include Tesla, most of the money will go to them. You exclude them because they are too BIG. Again, if you car and model is not on that list, you don't qualified. Nothing to do with the rule of LAW.

The terms and conditions are not in FINE print, it is actually front and center, and by signing the application, you agree to the conditions. I suspect that may be less than 20 people that are in that situation, and no "Meeting of Mind" is happening. Not even a gathering of those affected in Tim Horton, what can you said.

I also find it very funny is it seems only you and I are actively engaged in the debate, may be because you and I both get the rebate, and we are not emotional, or may be something else. In any case, I will leave the discussion now, and I won't be actively involved any more. Good luck to you guys.

Glad you got your rebate! (I still haven't received my cheque... just confirmation that it was on its way, but hopefully soon!)

Yes, more of an intellectual/legal discussion from my perspective now... I'm genuinely curious to see how a court would rule in this situation. But more importantly, I hope everyone who applied for the rebate in time gets their money!

 

[RAMP]

HI! We have been denied with an Ioniq - We have contacted the Ombudsman but no answer in almost a month. Does anyone have heard from them?
I have attached the information that was on the MTO web site that does not say anything about the list (dated 11th of july). We applied formt the rebate the 16th of July long before they put the new document on the 31 of august....

 

[Mshark]

HI! We have been denied with an Ioniq - We have contacted the Ombudsman but no answer in almost a month. Does anyone have heard from them?
I have attached the information that was on the MTO web site that does not say anything about the list (dated 11th of july). We applied formt the rebate the 16th of July long before they put the new document on the 31 of august....

Unfortunately, your denial will probably not be reversed. I am in the same situation as you. My car did not make it onto their list, because my dealer didn’t forward them the information. As my car [egolf] is the only one my dealer has sold, they were not informed about the list requirement, although VW Canada was. The MTO did not publicize the requirement on their web page- I think it was buried in the application guide.

The only hope you have with MTO is if you can provide proof that your dealer did forward the correct info. My MPP and the ombudsman have not helped me either.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. If you have any success please post how you did it. Good luck.

 

[Leafboy]

Think I'm at the end of the road here. Contacted two law firms neither appears interested. MPP hasn't helped media didn't side with us.

If anyone has had progress it would be great. Otherwise I guess we just have to remember this come June 2022.

 

[jstephens]

Think I'm at the end of the road here. Contacted two law firms neither appears interested. MPP hasn't helped media didn't side with us.

If anyone has had progress it would be great. Otherwise I guess we just have to remember this come June 2022.

Our dealer has stepped up with an amount we can live with. It's over for us. It's a deplorable way for the government to have handled this. I pretty much gave up after reading the comments to the CBC story, while there were some thoughtful, articulate people on there, the level of discussion was disheartening, I realized there simply wouldn't be enough support for our predicament, too many people are glad we didn't receive the rebate. I would love if the media did a story on how incentives and rebates actually work to change behaviour, get electric cars on the road and in the hands of regular people.

 

[RAMP]

Hi! Did your dealer gave you money back? How did you manage them to do that? We are at the end of the road too I guess... Thanks!

 

[jstephens]

Hi! Did your dealer gave you money back? How did you manage them to do that? We are at the end of the road too I guess... Thanks!

Not the full amount, but after we calculated the costs of possible legal fees, the money we are saving operating an electric vehicle etc., the dealer agreed to an amount we thought was fair. I think in the end, the dealer just wanted to do the right thing and not have us bugging them anymore.

 

[HT514]

JStephens please elaborate!! Who is your dealership and how much did they offer you?!! If VW dealerships have been mandated to offer settlements to customers, we all need to know!!! Thanks!!

 

[jstephens]

JStephens please elaborate!! Who is your dealership and how much did they offer you?!! If VW dealerships have been mandated to offer settlements to customers, we all need to know!!! Thanks!!

Not mandated by VW Canada. We had many conversations with VW Canada, they were entirely unhelpful. VWCanada, MTO, our MPP, kept putting it back on the dealer. Ombudsman still has not responded.