New car, whirring sound when accelerating from low speed

[DC2]

It would be great if someone would record the angry bees sound. I hadn't been able to hear the engine at all, even when I knew it was running. Now after more than 6,600 miles on the car I know it well enough to be able to discern the sound of the engine. Still it's very quiet when it rarely does come on.

I was able to take a video on my way to charging. Here it is on Google Drive:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Woqc7B7aciUEaAS0XpiGlguaaQj4Jyor
The sound becomes very apparent around 16 seconds in. ALthough I was driving under 30 mph, it sounds like the engine was running super hard. This was running with HV mode on I believe, but the same sound occurs without HV mode.

After charging ~1h20min to ~60/70%, the car ran super quiet and was normal.

See my post from earlier w/ video posted earlier. The sound becomes pretty apparent around 16 seconds into the video. (The audio from the video may sound a bit dampened like a low hum due to my phone, but it's a lot louder in person)

I've been charging the car more and driving on EV lately and it hasn't come up too much recently. I test drove another white clarity at the dealer on low power and a similar revving was audible.

 

[Pa-clarity]

My natural tendency when I heard high revs that were not correlated to speed was to back off the accelerator. This made it seem like I had no power. After Driving for a while, I learned not to do that and realized that there really was no loss of power. Are you sure that you are not unconsciously backing off the accelerator when you hear high RPMs and that is what is causing the apparent lack of power. Engine RPMs are not always related to car speed in the clarity.


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[DC2]

Yes, I'm sure. Backing off the accelerator was only because I was able to find a short road without people where I was able to get a short video while driving. During a normal occurrence, driving pretty slowly in a neighborhood with multiple stop signs <30mph, the revving is a low more pronounced. However it goes away it seems in highway situations. It seems to primarily occur at low stop and go speeds.

 

[KentuckyKen]

In the video it looks like you are at 2bars/O available charge. This seems to bring on the angry bees/high revs according to several posts. I suspect the ICE is straining to provide motive energy and charge the battery at the same time. Try switching to HV mode before completely draining the battery and see if that helps prevent the angry bees. Ive never heard the high revs on my car; just sounds like a fast idle even with hood up and listening close to motor. But I don’t accelerate aggressively and don’t have any hills both of which some posts say triggers it.

 

[DC2]

When the video was taken, I was manually switched in HV mode. In other instances, the revving occurs in HV mode as well, and a few times at roughly 50% battery.

In recent days, I have been charging the car more and driving in EV Econ mode which has reduced the revs.

 

[KentuckyKen]

DC2, from all the posts I’ve read it seems there is not a lot of consistency among our many Claritys. Unless I’m missing the common denominator here, there are just some Claritys that do this more than others even when trying to factor in driving styles, SOC, and terrain. It’s still a puzzler why some do and some don’t.

 

[KenG]

Last four of VIN 0721. I've never heard the angry bees sound.

For reference both my wife and I drive exclusively in EV mode Econ On, and we drive like the old folks we are. Also if the battery drops to 2 bars, which is almost never for us, we run in Charge mode to add at least a few bars.

My Driving style mirrors yours. My Vin ends in 0338.... no issues in 1300 miles and 2 months... always silent....hywy at 65 in charge mode is also not an issue. ( I’ve done that a few times) I have never let the EV range go to 0.
A note to all is that my 17 Volt sounds like a lawn mower when the EV range is gone, unfortunately running out of ev is unavoidable in a volt, not so much in the Clarity. I love my Volt and Clarity but I still say all PHEVs have electronic gremlins from time to time.


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[LAF]

Hello,

I just recently purchased a 2018 plug-in Clarity yesterday. On the drive home (in I presume normal EV mode with no buttons pressed), I noticed that there's a whirring engine/generator when I step on the accelerator between 25% to 50% speed going from 25 to 40 mph (shown in orange in the picture). Is this normal behavior for the clarity?

most likely your battery is not charged. won't happen once you charge at home

 

[Vezz66]

Vin 0187 here, 2 weeks and drive mostly EV with HV when longer range expected (at higher speeds and charge above 60%). No unusual behaviour in 1000 miles, did 8 trips beyond EV range. Charge every night.

Throwing this out there, the car is connected to the home wifi, maybe there is a software update?

The power display is your friend. Stay in the blue, ICE won’t turn on. As long as there is something left in the battery.

 

[DC2]

Vin 0187 here, 2 weeks and drive mostly EV with HV when longer range expected (at higher speeds and charge above 60%). No unusual behaviour in 1000 miles, did 8 trips beyond EV range. Charge every night.

Throwing this out there, the car is connected to the home wifi, maybe there is a software update?

The power display is your friend. Stay in the blue, ICE won’t turn on. As long as there is something left in the battery.

I don't mind the ICE turning on, just sometimes when the ICE turns on (or in HV), it starts revving loudly when I'm going from 0-25 mph at slow acceleration. It seems that for most ppl with low VIN numbers don't have any revving in HV mode at all.

Also is there a reason why my blue shrunk? It went back to normal when I turned off HV and back on.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Inside EVs mobile app

 

[Vezz66]

I don't mind the ICE turning on, just sometimes when the ICE turns on (or in HV), it starts revving loudly when I'm going from 0-25 mph at slow acceleration. It seems that for most ppl with low VIN numbers don't have any revving in HV mode at all.

Also is there a reason why my blue shrunk? It went back to normal when I turned off HV and back on.View attachment 1130View attachment 1131

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I would have to experiment a bit. Agree range is quite short on pics.

Assuming you had been in HV mode for several minutes (motor never turns off until it has warmed up minimally), normal temps outside...

 

[Gearhead]

I see multiple threads here essentially trying to reverse engineer the Honda software that controls the hybrid system. The Honda hybrids going back to their first application in the Accord (Hybrid and Plug In) have this asymmetrical engine control approach that maximizes fuel consumption with no regard for driver action. It's interesting to try to figure out but it's very complex. In some circumstances this means pegging engine RPM at maximum output on the power curve which is at high RPM for this ICE when charging the battery. I suspect in 99.9% of cases the behavior considered suspect is in fact normal, just not normal compared to the driver experience we've all become accustomed to over many years of driving.

 

[KentuckyKen]

I see multiple threads here essentially trying to reverse engineer the Honda software that controls the hybrid system. The Honda hybrids going back to their first application in the Accord (Hybrid and Plug In) have this asymmetrical engine control approach that maximizes fuel consumption with no regard for driver action. It's interesting to try to figure out but it's very complex. In some circumstances this means pegging engine RPM at maximum output on the power curve which is at high RPM for this ICE when charging the battery. I suspect in 99.9% of cases the behavior considered suspect is in fact normal, just not normal compared to the driver experience we've all become accustomed to over many years of driving.

Gearhead, that’s as good a speculation as any posted since we don’t know the algorithm. However, it doesn’t explain why some get the high revs a lot and some never. Any ideas on that one?

And help me understand the part where you said it would act to maximize fuel consumption. I thought it would switch power modes to achieve the best efficiency/economy?

 

[Gearhead]

Gearhead, that’s as good a speculation as any posted since we don’t know the algorithm. However, it doesn’t explain why some get the high revs a lot and some never. Any ideas on that one?

And help me understand the part where you said it would act to maximize fuel consumption. I thought it would switch power modes to achieve the best efficiency/economy?

I'm guessing here but it seems the algorithm has to address multiple needs. MPG, battery life, drivability and NVH probably compete as requirements and priority sometimes favors one over the other so high revs with resulting NVH are simply de-prioritized under certain conditions. Exactly how all of this works is something only a few people know but we'll all get smarter over time as we identify patterns of behavior.

Some more speculation - conditions such as charge level and possibly other factors like how we're driving the car and/or how quickly we're depleting the battery would determine how aggressively the generator has to be employed to charge the battery. With 20% charge the generator might be more casual (ie lower RPM) than 3% charge.

Generally I'm trusting the designers to have gotten it mostly right but reporting concerns here and to Honda is a good idea since we're all learning about arguably the most complex family sedan in production and the control software is constantly being refined. I'd only trust a couple of manufacturers to get this right and so far I'm very impressed. Just trying not to stress if something is happening I don't quite understand, at least until I get more info.

 

[Gearhead]

Some basic information that helps us understand what's going on with the hybrid...

https://www.caranddriver.com/featur...shrewdly-designed-new-hybrid-system-tech-dept

 

[M.M.]

Also is there a reason why my blue shrunk? It went back to normal when I turned off HV and back on.

I didn’t see anyone else answer this, but when in HV mode the blue will move all over the place as the car attempts to maintain what it thinks is the correct state of charge and efficient operating point. It’s supposed to do this, don’t worry about it. Even a non-PHEV probably has a very similar routine for low speeds, you just don’t see it indicated on the dash so it’s kind of invisible.

I see multiple threads here essentially trying to reverse engineer the Honda software that controls the hybrid system. [...] I suspect in 99.9% of cases the behavior considered suspect is in fact normal, just not normal compared to the driver experience we've all become accustomed to over many years of driving.

I tend to agree with you here, although I suppose part of the problem is the lack of explanation from Honda and that whatever logic they’re using seems to the operator to be somewhat random.

For example, the car will exercise the ICE every month if it hasn’t run, but unlike the Volt there’s no user indication of this, so the user ends up wondering why the car is starting the ICE with a full battery for no apparent reason. Another example is the turn-on point for the ICE while hard accelerating in Normal and Sport modes. The manual gives a really unscientific graph of what the cutover points are, but the car actually has a mechanism for showing this in real time (the white dashed line above) that it neglects to use in those two modes for no readily apparent reason.

The high-revs could be a counterexample; it’s quite possible that the ICE’s most efficient run point is actually fairly high RPM under some particular generator load, and the car is intentionally using this in order to make most efficient use of gasoline, but to the driver it feels random. Of course, how quiet the car is, and how much noise it makes consistently, is also a factor in user satisfaction, so even if periodic high revs might make sense from an engineering standpoint it’s possible that’s a bad design decision because it’s simply annoying to the driver.

The only similar vehicle I have to contrast with is the Volt; this could have to do with my owning a model a few years in when the kinks had been worked out but it seemed to be more deterministic as a driver. I did, however, get used to the fact that the ICE, when in operation, would have little to do with what I was doing with the accelerator--it would ramp up and down on its own schedule but in the end the car went forward and drove the same, so it didn’t matter apart from noise.

 

[DC2]

I didn’t see anyone else answer this, but when in HV mode the blue will move all over the place as the car attempts to maintain what it thinks is the correct state of charge and efficient operating point. It’s supposed to do this, don’t worry about it. Even a non-PHEV probably has a very similar routine for low speeds, you just don’t see it indicated on the dash so it’s kind of invisible.
I tend to agree with you here, although I suppose part of the problem is the lack of explanation from Honda and that whatever logic they’re using seems to the operator to be somewhat random.

For example, the car will exercise the ICE every month if it hasn’t run, but unlike the Volt there’s no user indication of this, so the user ends up wondering why the car is starting the ICE with a full battery for no apparent reason. Another example is the turn-on point for the ICE while hard accelerating in Normal and Sport modes. The manual gives a really unscientific graph of what the cutover points are, but the car actually has a mechanism for showing this in real time (the white dashed line above) that it neglects to use in those two modes for no readily apparent reason.

The high-revs could be a counterexample; it’s quite possible that the ICE’s most efficient run point is actually fairly high RPM under some particular generator load, and the car is intentionally using this in order to make most efficient use of gasoline, but to the driver it feels random. Of course, how quiet the car is, and how much noise it makes consistently, is also a factor in user satisfaction, so even if periodic high revs might make sense from an engineering standpoint it’s possible that’s a bad design decision because it’s simply annoying to the driver.

The only similar vehicle I have to contrast with is the Volt; this could have to do with my owning a model a few years in when the kinks had been worked out but it seemed to be more deterministic as a driver. I did, however, get used to the fact that the ICE, when in operation, would have little to do with what I was doing with the accelerator--it would ramp up and down on its own schedule but in the end the car went forward and drove the same, so it didn’t matter apart from noise.

Thanks for the explanation. Curiously, my car was at 0% battery today and it didn't rev at all whereas two days ago, it was revving in HV mode around 60-70% battery.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Inside EVs mobile app

 

[Gearhead]

I didn’t see anyone else answer this, but when in HV mode the blue will move all over the place as the car attempts to maintain what it thinks is the correct state of charge and efficient operating point. It’s supposed to do this, don’t worry about it. Even a non-PHEV probably has a very similar routine for low speeds, you just don’t see it indicated on the dash so it’s kind of invisible.
I tend to agree with you here, although I suppose part of the problem is the lack of explanation from Honda and that whatever logic they’re using seems to the operator to be somewhat random.

For example, the car will exercise the ICE every month if it hasn’t run, but unlike the Volt there’s no user indication of this, so the user ends up wondering why the car is starting the ICE with a full battery for no apparent reason. Another example is the turn-on point for the ICE while hard accelerating in Normal and Sport modes. The manual gives a really unscientific graph of what the cutover points are, but the car actually has a mechanism for showing this in real time (the white dashed line above) that it neglects to use in those two modes for no readily apparent reason.

The high-revs could be a counterexample; it’s quite possible that the ICE’s most efficient run point is actually fairly high RPM under some particular generator load, and the car is intentionally using this in order to make most efficient use of gasoline, but to the driver it feels random. Of course, how quiet the car is, and how much noise it makes consistently, is also a factor in user satisfaction, so even if periodic high revs might make sense from an engineering standpoint it’s possible that’s a bad design decision because it’s simply annoying to the driver.

The only similar vehicle I have to contrast with is the Volt; this could have to do with my owning a model a few years in when the kinks had been worked out but it seemed to be more deterministic as a driver. I did, however, get used to the fact that the ICE, when in operation, would have little to do with what I was doing with the accelerator--it would ramp up and down on its own schedule but in the end the car went forward and drove the same, so it didn’t matter apart from noise.

Max HP is 5500 RPM. I assume that's where the engine is pegged when in full charge mode.

 

[Rich Shaffer]

I didn’t see anyone else answer this, but when in HV mode the blue will move all over the place as the car attempts to maintain what it thinks is the correct state of charge and efficient operating point. It’s supposed to do this, don’t worry about it. Even a non-PHEV probably has a very similar routine for low speeds, you just don’t see it indicated on the dash so it’s kind of invisible.
I tend to agree with you here, although I suppose part of the problem is the lack of explanation from Honda and that whatever logic they’re using seems to the operator to be somewhat random.

For example, the car will exercise the ICE every month if it hasn’t run, but unlike the Volt there’s no user indication of this, so the user ends up wondering why the car is starting the ICE with a full battery for no apparent reason. Another example is the turn-on point for the ICE while hard accelerating in Normal and Sport modes. The manual gives a really unscientific graph of what the cutover points are, but the car actually has a mechanism for showing this in real time (the white dashed line above) that it neglects to use in those two modes for no readily apparent reason.

The high-revs could be a counterexample; it’s quite possible that the ICE’s most efficient run point is actually fairly high RPM under some particular generator load, and the car is intentionally using this in order to make most efficient use of gasoline, but to the driver it feels random. Of course, how quiet the car is, and how much noise it makes consistently, is also a factor in user satisfaction, so even if periodic high revs might make sense from an engineering standpoint it’s possible that’s a bad design decision because it’s simply annoying to the driver.

The only similar vehicle I have to contrast with is the Volt; this could have to do with my owning a model a few years in when the kinks had been worked out but it seemed to be more deterministic as a driver. I did, however, get used to the fact that the ICE, when in operation, would have little to do with what I was doing with the accelerator--it would ramp up and down on its own schedule but in the end the car went forward and drove the same, so it didn’t matter apart from noise.

All,
The other day was driving home from work with full battery. Engine had not come on for probably a month. I heard the engine start and got a visual "Engine started for oil circulation" on the dash. Have used 3.5 gallons (1/2 tank) since Jan 1st. 2500 miles on the clock so far. Very happy with this car.