Lunch with an EV skeptic

[bwilson4web]

Eating lunch with a friendly acquaintance and EV skeptic, I mentioned doing my 5 year, 130,000 mi maintenance. So I described the front, upper control arm problem that drains rain water onto an unprotected, ball joint. The workaround was to massage the grease bellows because there is no grease nipple until I could get a better part.

Like me, he called it 'a poor design.' And I quipped, 'Well maybe they didn't expect my Tesla to last this long.' We both laughed.

He was concerned the replacement aluminum part needed a coating to prevent electrolysis. Fair enough, I expressed confidence in the German engineering of a stronger yet lighter part. The king pin is aluminum too and the part mounts to the steel frame using rubber bushings.

Our EVs are otherwise, ordinary cars subject to the same aging effects all cars suffer from. Feel free to share the same joke when chatting with EV skeptics.

Bob Wilson

 

[R P]

Yeah, I run into anti-EVers all the time. They are mostly concerned about range, and compare it to their ICE cars. I try to explain that range isn't everything, and charging speed is actually more important. They don't get that when you stop for a bio break or something to eat, you can also charge. That's not how they drive their ICE cars. Fueling up is done only when the tank is 1/4 or less, not when you stop for other reasons. It's hard to get them out of that thinking. For them, range is still the most important thing for them.

It is true that you need to do some planning for a trip with an EV. But now that I have done it many times, it is no big deal. I use Plugshare and ensure I have plenty of Plan Bs and Cs, in case I have a problem. And I only go for the free ones (L3s). Fortunately, there are still enough of those around, but sometimes you have to put up with some glitches and throttled charging. But hey, if it is free you can't complain too much. So far, I have never been inconvenienced to the point of having range anxiety because of not being able to charge when I need it.

 

[SouthernDude]

Yeah, I run into anti-EVers all the time.

I wouldn't call them anti, its more like they don't understand the logic of how driving an EV will work or they just presume that the infrastructure won't get built out enough for their use case in a reasonable time frame, which is not a totally irrational concern. Not to mention how the range of the car changes in an unfamiliar way depending on how fast the person drives. Even I have trouble getting a good feel for that, so I can only go off the 70 mph tests and extrapolate from there to 80 mph.

Most people don't think about what their actual driving needs are and just go to hypotheticals or select a once in a decade trip as a design criteria. Doesn't help that hyper pro ev people muddy the water by incorrectly using the average miles per day driven stat - this stat is actually totally useless in determining a design criteria for range anyways. A histogram is far more useful because it would show the number of days that a person drove a particular number of miles - one for a single year and one projecting out for a decade. For example, the longest one way trip I have ever driven was 600 miles in one day then 600 miles back after the trip was done. I consider that to be a once a year to a few times a decade driving event. Am I willing to spend an extra 10k for that additional range, probably not. Most people would then see that like 90% of days they drive their car less than 300 miles or something. That is when a more realistic conversation about tradeoffs can take place. I think its totally reasonable for people to want a car that can cover 75-85% of their driving days on a single overnight charge. There are some people who frequently drive more than 300-400 miles per day, but I have no idea what portion of the population does that and I assume its less than 10%.

At least for me, I would probably want an EV that could get around 250 miles of interstate driving, which is practically becoming standard now.

They don't get that when you stop for a bio break or something to eat, you can also charge.

That is only possible if there is enough infrastructure to where people can stop when they want to as opposed to the infrastructure dictating stops.

For them, range is still the most important thing for them.

Range will always be important because you are trying to sell them onto a car that has anywhere from a quarter to a third less range than the average ICE. Most people don't just follow the specs of EVs closely so its unreasonable to hold them to account to information that only became true a year or two ago. I still have friends who bring up the old nissan leaf range and issues because that was when they looked at it last.

It is true that you need to do some planning for a trip with an EV.

Yeah, but I don't want to need to hyper plan out every long distance trip I take. Right now that is necessary around where i live because there arent a ton of stations and they have unknown condition.

 

[bwilson4web]

I wouldn't call them anti, its more like they don't understand the logic of how driving an EV will work or they just presume that the infrastructure won't get built out enough for their use case in a reasonable time frame, which is not a totally irrational concern.

Fair concerns. So I answer their fears and when appropriate inject how much it costs to drive 100 miles.

Some people are unable for any number of reasons not EV ready. So I share how I handle their fears. But time is on the side of EVs. There is no need for a road to Damascus conversion.

Bob Wilson

 

[SouthernDude]

Fair concerns. So I answer their fears and when appropriate inject how much it costs to drive 100 miles.

Some people are unable for any number of reasons not EV ready. So I share how I handle their fears. But time is on the side of EVs. There is no need for a road to Damascus conversion.

Bob Wilson

Eventually people will see and there will be enough L2 charging at hotels/resorts/etc for people to not be as worried anymore. For me it will be like 2-4 more years out because I ride a bike to work now, my new company has a car I can use for work travel, and I am not made of money and wont get a car loan.

 

[R P]

I wouldn't call them anti, its more like they don't understand the logic of how driving an EV will work or they just presume that the infrastructure won't get built out enough for their use case in a reasonable time frame, which is not a totally irrational concern. Not to mention how the range of the car changes in an unfamiliar way depending on how fast the person drives. Even I have trouble getting a good feel for that, so I can only go off the 70 mph tests and extrapolate from there to 80 mph.

Most people don't think about what their actual driving needs are and just go to hypotheticals or select a once in a decade trip as a design criteria. Doesn't help that hyper pro ev people muddy the water by incorrectly using the average miles per day driven stat - this stat is actually totally useless in determining a design criteria for range anyways. A histogram is far more useful because it would show the number of days that a person drove a particular number of miles - one for a single year and one projecting out for a decade. For example, the longest one way trip I have ever driven was 600 miles in one day then 600 miles back after the trip was done. I consider that to be a once a year to a few times a decade driving event. Am I willing to spend an extra 10k for that additional range, probably not. Most people would then see that like 90% of days they drive their car less than 300 miles or something. That is when a more realistic conversation about tradeoffs can take place. I think its totally reasonable for people to want a car that can cover 75-85% of their driving days on a single overnight charge. There are some people who frequently drive more than 300-400 miles per day, but I have no idea what portion of the population does that and I assume its less than 10%.

At least for me, I would probably want an EV that could get around 250 miles of interstate driving, which is practically becoming standard now.


That is only possible if there is enough infrastructure to where people can stop when they want to as opposed to the infrastructure dictating stops.


Range will always be important because you are trying to sell them onto a car that has anywhere from a quarter to a third less range than the average ICE. Most people don't just follow the specs of EVs closely so its unreasonable to hold them to account to information that only became true a year or two ago. I still have friends who bring up the old nissan leaf range and issues because that was when they looked at it last.


Yeah, but I don't want to need to hyper plan out every long distance trip I take. Right now that is necessary around where i live because there arent a ton of stations and they have unknown condition.

First, let me say that I appreciate where you are coming from, similar to most non-EV owners and skeptics. I was the same before I got my first one back in 2019, a Kona EV. But once you have experience driving a BEV, you learn to adapt and gain confidence on how to plan and do trips. Initially, we had one BEV and one ICE car. The latter was used for longer trips, esp when I drove into the US. But around home and within BC, our charging infrastructure is pretty good, so wasn't afraid to use the BEV for trips here.

Based on my experience, I soon learned that for longer trips, you want a faster charging BEV, and a decent range (doesn't have to be the longest). That's why I bought the Ioniq 6, which charges super fast, and we now only own two BEVs, no ICE car. The other BEV (Solterra) is not a trip car (slow L3 charging), but is good off-road (to go to our cabin), and we need two cars in our household anyway. My wife actually prefers driving the Solterra, and I mainly drive the I6. Anyway, we are now covered for longer trips, and I have no hesitation going anywhere with the I6 on a long trip. But that only comes with experience.

Further on a couple of your points. Fast charging stations are usually located around convenience stops, fast food, etc, similar to gas stations. And it doesn't take a lot of planning, in fact you can do that while you are driving as the car can keep you informed of where the nearest or next charging stations. Also you stay at hotels that have free overnight charging as an amenity, similar to free breakfasts.

BTW, my son has owned a Tesla since 2018, and goes everywhere with it. Two years ago, he drove to FL and back (to Vancouver) clear across the continent diagonally for spring break. Look on a map to appreciate how far that is. This year, just now actually, they went to Phoenix. Took 2 days of driving, same as with an ICE car. Again, look at a map to appreciate the distances. What you need to understand that when you stop for food, bio breaks, etc, you also charge. So that way, you don't waste extra time just sitting there waiting for your car to charge. With my I6, it charges even faster, so the car is usually finished its charging, before we are finished doing our thing. I know this is a little different than an ICE car trip, but once you do it a few times, you quickly adapt and gain full confidence.

 

[SouthernDude]

First, let me say that I appreciate where you are coming from, similar to most non-EV owners and skeptics. I was the same before I got my first one back in 2019, a Kona EV. But once you have experience driving a BEV, you learn to adapt and gain confidence on how to plan and do trips. Initially, we had one BEV and one ICE car. The latter was used for longer trips, esp when I drove into the US. But around home and within BC, our charging infrastructure is pretty good, so wasn't afraid to use the BEV for trips here.

Based on my experience, I soon learned that for longer trips, you want a faster charging BEV, and a decent range (doesn't have to be the longest). That's why I bought the Ioniq 6, which charges super fast, and we now only own two BEVs, no ICE car. The other BEV (Solterra) is not a trip car (slow L3 charging), but is good off-road (to go to our cabin), and we need two cars in our household anyway. My wife actually prefers driving the Solterra, and I mainly drive the I6. Anyway, we are now covered for longer trips, and I have no hesitation going anywhere with the I6 on a long trip. But that only comes with experience.

Sure, easier if you live in an area that already has more infrastructure. Coastal areas have more infrastructure going out to the country.

Further on a couple of your points. Fast charging stations are usually located around convenience stops, fast food, etc, similar to gas stations. And it doesn't take a lot of planning, in fact you can do that while you are driving as the car can keep you informed of where the nearest or next charging stations. Also you stay at hotels that have free overnight charging as an amenity, similar to free breakfasts.

That depends on where you are. Around here, virtually all the Electrify America infrastructure are in walmart parking lots and I am less familiar with tesla station locations because I didn't predict that every car company would adopt their standard. much of the area around interstate exists are not walkable, so you are often stuck at walmart if you were driving a CCS car. This will change at interstate exits over time, but its only more true in specific regions or at particular locations outside of those regions.

BTW, my son has owned a Tesla since 2018, and goes everywhere with it. Two years ago, he drove to FL and back (to Vancouver) clear across the continent diagonally for spring break. Look on a map to appreciate how far that is. This year, just now actually, they went to Phoenix. Took 2 days of driving, same as with an ICE car. Again, look at a map to appreciate the distances. What you need to understand that when you stop for food, bio breaks, etc, you also charge. So that way, you don't waste extra time just sitting there waiting for your car to charge. With my I6, it charges even faster, so the car is usually finished its charging, before we are finished doing our thing. I know this is a little different than an ICE car trip, but once you do it a few times, you quickly adapt and gain full confidence.

Again, this just depends on the charging network. CCS locations are usually hit or miss. Tesla generally did a better job with locating them near stuff other than just walmarts. But this is just relevant to the interstate. Once you get off the interstate and start using US Hwys or State Hwys, there are still sizable pockets in the US that basically have nothing. In my state, the southwest quarter has virtually nothing off the interstate in an area that is likely frequently driven through too. Obviously this will change over time, but it will be a deterrent in the short term, which is ok because there isn't enough EV manufacturing to support 100% of annual light duty vehicle sales anyways.

 

[R P]

Sure, easier if you live in an area that already has more infrastructure. Coastal areas have more infrastructure going out to the country.


That depends on where you are. Around here, virtually all the Electrify America infrastructure are in walmart parking lots and I am less familiar with tesla station locations because I didn't predict that every car company would adopt their standard. much of the area around interstate exists are not walkable, so you are often stuck at walmart if you were driving a CCS car. This will change at interstate exits over time, but its only more true in specific regions or at particular locations outside of those regions.



Again, this just depends on the charging network. CCS locations are usually hit or miss. Tesla generally did a better job with locating them near stuff other than just walmarts. But this is just relevant to the interstate. Once you get off the interstate and start using US Hwys or State Hwys, there are still sizable pockets in the US that basically have nothing. In my state, the southwest quarter has virtually nothing off the interstate in an area that is likely frequently driven through too. Obviously this will change over time, but it will be a deterrent in the short term, which is ok because there isn't enough EV manufacturing to support 100% of annual light duty vehicle sales anyways.

Actually, it depends less on where you live and more on where you want to go on a trip. You can charge at home where you live. But there are definitely some areas that don't have good charging infrastucture. However, if you look at plugshare, it is usually better than what you thought, and may just require some planning.

For me, and our trips, I am more picky. I want to charge for free, and so far I have been able to do that. In BC, that is easy, at least for all the places I might want to travel to. Across Canada (which is a long, long ways), it might be more difficult to go free the whole way, esp off the main routes, but it can be done (with Petro Canada and On the Run). Later this summer I may go visit my family in Manitoba. I know I can do that trip all the way free.

My suggestion to you or anyone contemplating buying their first BEV is don't if it will be your only household vehicle. You need to first get used to charging (and what can go wrong) and how much range is needed for different situations. And unless it is a fast charging, longer range BEV, don't use it for long trips. Use your ICE car for that.

But once you have one, and become used to it, you will never go back. That's what happened to me. Once I got used to the Kona, and saw what new BEV models were coming, there was no question we would go ICE-less as soon as possible. And we have been so for almost a year now.