Loss of Power

C

ClarityBill

Active Member
Seems like this hasn't been discussed for a while:

When I pressed the accelerator to the floor, the power meter would not go above 50%.

The battery was at zero SOC (OBDII) and no bars on the display. The engine was around 5400 rpm (OBDII). Noise was not bad, now that angry bees have been solved.

I had gotten gas, and forgot to press the HV button. I had a 'full' load of equipment in the car and on the back rack. I had set the cruise control to 78 mph on an interstate going up a slight hill. The speed was at 65 mph: I did not notice if I had gotten up to 78 and dropped back down, or if it never accelerated over 65.

This seems like normal and proper operation of the car, when the battery is allowed to go very dead.
 
I think this nicely demonstrates that the ICE cannot produce as much power as the (ICE + Traction Battery). Thus, when the HV Battery is 'dead' the max power you can have is limited to the 50% meter reading as you saw. The vehicle does not want to let the battery go below 2 bars, but you apparently had enough of a load (in combination with the uphill terrain) that it just couldn't maintain speed and charge the battery so something had to give. It chose to completely drain the battery, and even then, it was unable to maintain the desired speed.

I understand that this was an honest mistake on your part. I wish (like a lot of people) that there was a setting to retain HV mode after a restart.

I agree that this is "normal" operation (given a fringe operating condition that you had). You really want to avoid this for several reasons - It is hard on the battery, It can be hard on the ears (Bees), and it can be dangerous if the vehicle just can't 'keep up' with your desired speed and the traffic conditions.

I feel fortunate that I am unlikely to encounter this scenario, mostly because everything is pretty much flat here with no sustained uphills. But I will try to be extra cautious if I go on a long road trip to maintain substantial battery charge throughout. In some cases, this may take a little planning to gain some knowledge of elevation changes in mountainous terrain. On a long road trip with no opportunity to charge, I would also use HV Charge to augment the SOC as needed throughout the trip.
 
Noise was not bad, now that angry bees have been solved.

I did not know angry bees has been solved. What was the solution?
 
My car had angry bees when new, I burned premium fuel, and now it is much quieter.

My guess is there was a bias set incorrectly for spark plug timing, and the jump to premium fuel got the bias to move.

If you are experiencing angry bees, I would suggest burning a couple tanks of premium fuel. This topic has been argued here previously, but it made a dramatic difference in the noise level of my Clarity. I drove 70,000 miles with angry bees, 20,000 miles on premium fuel, and switched back to regular fuel. I am at 120K miles now, and very impressed with the quiet ride.

I believe there are owners that have not experienced angry bees, so have trouble understanding the problem. I had angry bees, and gave up hope. Someone suggested premium fuel for a different advantage that did not pan out, so the angry bees solution was purely accidental.
 
I believe your claim of the use of premium fuel reducing engine noise is anecdotal. If it gives you a psychological benefit, then spend the extra $.40 to .60 per gallon. I'll stick with 87 octane and keep a bit more money in my wallet.
 
Mowcowbell said:
I'll stick with 87 octane and keep a bit more money in my wallet.
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I use 87 octane as well. And I don’t let the battery gauge drop to two bars unless I’m near the garage. Never seen 1 bar or zero bars. Guess you really gotta push the car in EV to get that result.

How much fuel do you put in the car? I’ve bought about 100 gallons over a 2 year period. In my case, the difference in fuel price between regular and premium over a 2 year period would amount to a decent bottle of wine. If $20 a year was that important, I wouldn’t have bought a new car.
 
Landshark said:
I use 87 octane as well. And I don’t let the battery gauge drop to two bars unless I’m near the garage. Never seen 1 bar or zero bars. Guess you really gotta push the car in EV to get that result.

How much fuel do you put in the car? I’ve bought about 100 gallons over a 2 year period. In my case, the difference in fuel price between regular and premium over a 2 year period would amount to a decent bottle of wine. If $20 a year was that important, I wouldn’t have bought a new car.
Click to expand...
My Clarity has seen 11,800 miles since I bought it new in Mar 2018. Probably 10,000 of that on EV only. Honda spec'd the Clarity for 87 octane, that's what I'm running.... don't care if premium was .01 more, since you're going to be catty about it.
 
There is a difference on premium. I know all the reasons why there should not be but I actually tried it and there is a difference in db, RPM, & MPG. I am not going to debate or even respond to anyone on this topic. I suggest you try it yourself. If you disagree, let it go. Apparently, it makes a difference for others.
 
The Gadgeteer said:
There is a difference on premium. I know all the reasons why there should not be but I actually tried it and there is a difference in db, RPM, & MPG. I am not going to debate or even respond to anyone on this topic. I suggest you try it yourself. If you disagree, let it go. Apparently, it makes a difference for others.
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Anecdotal without before and after test results. But hey your 'butt dyno' tells you so.
 
I had the angry bees for a long time, and don't now. Kentucky Ken early on suggested I try removing and replacing the 12v battery connection. This generates scary warnings, but driving 5-15 miles seems to clear them all. Anyway, after I did this, combined with a discipline never to allow EV = 0, my bees are gone.

My car does lose EV even in HV mode, albeit slowly. If I see EV go below 10 on a long drive, I hold HV (HV charge mode) which typically gets me back to 18-22 estimated EV charge. I then continue driving in HV mode.

But to Clarity Bill's point, I actually do believe people who see angry bees (which isn't everyone) may have an invalid set-point of some sort, which is in need of resetting. Now if that gets reset via some premium fuel, or disconnect/reconnect of 12v battery, so be it.

I have never, under any condition, lost power on my car. Even when EV =0 and angry bees roaring, I can push the pedal down and get more power. I don't like the sound of the high-reving engine, so I try to avoid that condition by always keeping some EV range on my trips. I do believe everyone who has lost power, so not disputing their claim. I just haven't experienced that one personally.

One other detail in my case, I had the software from the factory that didn't tolerate some public chargers (out of spec power) and caused a set of scary looking warnings that did not go away by themselves (I think it was the "System Power" warnings). Anyway, that event which happened on my first trip with my new Clarity may of caused me 6 months of angry bees (or the invalid settings-- whatever causes them). The reset of 12v battery seemed to fix. Anyway, if you routinely see angry bees, neither high octane gas or disconnect/reconnect 12v battery will hurt your vehicle. I'd try one or both strategies if need be.

If you very rarely or never see Angry bees (or don't know what they are), I'd leave it all to the car's own self management.
 
Premium or high octane fuel often doesn't have ethanol blended into it. It also often has the better detergent package. Those are some benefits to using high octane.
On a hot summer day, I might consider using 93 octane fuel or if I knew I would be primarily EV for the next few months. In cooler weather - below 90 degrees I would not see why the engine would need higher octane fuel. It's a lower compression piston with a atkins cycle.

Now my tuned M4 running 22psi boost only ever gets 93 octane
 
West1 said:
Premium or high octane fuel often doesn't have ethanol blended into it.
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All the "premium" gasoline in Michigan has ethanol. I pay higher than premium-gas prices for non-ethanol gasoline because I believe non-ethanol gas is less prone to the effects of age while it sits unused in the Clarity's tiny tank for months at a time (I didn't visit a gas station in 2020). It's a good thing I rarely need gas because I can't find non-ethanol gasoline in my home town. If I went on a long trip, I'd use regular ethanol gas.
 
Ever tried Sta-bil? I’ve had ethanol laced 87 octane in vehicles for more than a year with no ill effects, when dosed with the stabilizer. An 8oz bottle treats 20 gallons for about $5 or $.25/gallon.
 
Landshark said:
Ever tried Sta-bil? I’ve had ethanol laced 87 octane in vehicles for more than a year with no ill effects, when dosed with the stabilizer. An 8oz bottle treats 20 gallons for about $5 or $.25/gallon.
Click to expand...
Good suggestion. I add Sta-bil, too.
 
Mowcowbell said:
My Clarity has seen 11,800 miles since I bought it new in Mar 2018. Probably 10,000 of that on EV only. Honda spec'd the Clarity for 87 octane, that's what I'm running.... don't care if premium was .01 more, since you're going to be catty about it.
Click to expand...

Honda requires a minimum of 87 octane. In Europe they require 91 octane for the same engine in hybrid Honda Fit/Jazz. Most modern engines run smoother/more quite on premium. If you are burning gas all the time, I understand, it might not worth the cost. But if you are using the engine now and then I think it makes sense to use premium in this car.
 
Agzand said:
Honda requires a minimum of 87 octane. In Europe they require 91 octane for the same engine in hybrid Honda Fit/Jazz. Most modern engines run smoother/more quite on premium. If you are burning gas all the time, I understand, it might not worth the cost. But if you are using the engine now and then I think it makes sense to use premium in this car.
Click to expand...

European numbers are derived using RON. That test method yields higher numbers. MON yields lower numbers for the same fuel. The US uses an average on RON and MON, frequently referred to as PON.

European 91 equals American 87.
 
Landshark said:
European numbers are derived using RON. That test method yields higher numbers. MON yields lower numbers for the same fuel. The US uses an average on RON and MON, frequently referred to as PON.

European 91 equals American 87.
Click to expand...

Except that in Europe Honda and all manufacturers require 95 RON which is equal to US 91. Here is a screen shot from Jazz brochure:

Honda Jazz

Honda Jazz

  • Media owner Agzand
  • Date added
 
Well, it’s unexplainable then. The kw to hp conversation puts the European engine at 96hp. Less than the American market engine. More power on less expensive fuel. Who knew?

Maybe Honda is pulling a fast one on the European market.

The bottom line is, the owners manual for the US version says 87, so that’s what it gets. Fuel requirements for European versions don’t concern me.
 
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