List of affordable Bev's so small...

[miatadan]

Considering that the Nissan Leaf was released in 2010, the number of affordable EV's has not increased very much.

As of 2022 model year so far the Nissan Leaf pricing has dropped to $37498 which means it is $32498 after Canadian $5000 rebate and the longest in production so far.

If only looking at models designed from ground up as Bev , we have:

2022 Chevrolet Bolt EUV & Bolt
2022 Mini Cooper SE 3 door
2022 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range & Standard Range+
2022 VW ID4
2022 Mazda MX30

So in 11 years time, we have total of 6 models , maybe 8 if the newer Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Kia EV6 is available at low enough price

discouraging that not more to choose from

Dan

 

[bwilson4web]

Patience as the Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) cells are showing up in a few models. Running about 60% the cost per kWh, they don't have super performance but appear to be 'good enough.' With a dense, high-speed, charging network, LFP cars will be affordable yet still replace many ICE vehicles. For example, Tesla in China has already released some LFP cars.

Bob Wilson

 

[Puppethead]

That list does not include European models, where there are many more smaller BEVs (Honda e and Renault Zoe come to mind). The problem is the North American market (US in particular) prefers gigantic vehicles.

 

[bwilson4web]

That list does not include European models, where there are many more smaller BEVs (Honda e and Renault Zoe come to mind). The problem is the North American market (US in particular) prefers gigantic vehicles.

The North American market also tends to driver further than our friends in the EU: https://internationalcomparisons.org/environmental/transportation/

• USA - 14,000 km per capita
• Australia - 10,800 km per capita
• Canada - 8,500 km per capita
• Germany, Sweden - 7,000 km per capita

Requirements drive the vehicle used.

Bob Wilson

 

[SouthernDude]

Considering that the Nissan Leaf was released in 2010, the number of affordable EV's has not increased very much.

As of 2022 model year so far the Nissan Leaf pricing has dropped to $37498 which means it is $32498 after Canadian $5000 rebate and the longest in production so far.

If only looking at models designed from ground up as Bev , we have:

2022 Chevrolet Bolt EUV & Bolt
2022 Mini Cooper SE 3 door
2022 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range & Standard Range+
2022 VW ID4
2022 Mazda MX30

So in 11 years time, we have total of 6 models , maybe 8 if the newer Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Kia EV6 is available at low enough price

discouraging that not more to choose from

Dan

This is largely due to the fact that modern EV technology is honestly less than 10 years old, so the technology is still improving and there's a limited manufacturing capacity for both the cars and components. The limited manufacturing capacity restricts supply, which generally causes the price of things to increase.

 

[Puppethead]

Requirements drive the vehicle used.

The preference for trucks and SUVs is rampant with ICE vehicles. Certainly smaller EVs tend to have shorter range, but the success of the Leaf alludes to range not being why behemoths are the preferred vehicle in the US.

 

[John Lumsden]

The North American market also tends to driver further than our friends in the EU:

• USA - 14,000 km per capita
• Australia - 10,800 km per capita
• Canada - 8,500 km per capita
• Germany, Sweden - 7,000 km per capita

Requirements drive the vehicle used.

Bob Wilson

Perhaps the relative price of gasoline has something to do with it too. Eyeballing it, there looks like an inverse relationship between cents per litre and km per capita, and so larger vehicles driven further are more prevalent where fuel is cheaper.

 

[miatadan]

The preference for trucks and SUVs is rampant with ICE vehicles. Certainly smaller EVs tend to have shorter range, but the success of the Leaf alludes to range not being why behemoths are the preferred vehicle in the US.

I am one of those people who do not like trucks and SUVs and prefer smaller EVs that are cars. This leaves Mini Cooper SE, Leaf and Model 3.

Guessing the other reason is that many people over the years in the United States have become over weight and some cases obese resulting each generation of vehicles to become larger. If you look at the physical size of the 1964 Mustang compared to current 2021 Mustang. Or size of Ford F150 in 1973 compared to current models.

General public does not realize that a car ( station wagon ) would have better handling, driving characteristics than SUVs.

One of the reasons I loved the Mazda MX5 Miata was the small size.

Dan

 

[marshall]

General public does not realize that a car ( station wagon ) would have better handling, driving characteristics than SUVs.

I think most folks just want get from point A to point B safely.

A vehicle with more mass is going to come out the winner in a vehicle to vehicle collision. A bigger vehicle has more utility for many folks. A higher seating vehicle is easier for folks with health issues to enter and exit. These are a few of things that go through folk's minds when buying a larger vehicle over a sports car.

 

[marshall]

So in 11 years time, we have total of 6 models , maybe 8 if the newer Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Kia EV6 is available at low enough price

discouraging that not more to choose from

Not surprising, since manufactures can't make money on small vehicles.

 

[R P]

Not surprising, since manufactures can't make money on small vehicles.

Since batteries are still the most costly EV component, hard to make a cheap BEV profitable. Might as well add some size and bling to justify the higher costs.

 

[ENirogus]

Considering that the Nissan Leaf was released in 2010, the number of affordable EV's has not increased very much.

As of 2022 model year so far the Nissan Leaf pricing has dropped to $37498 which means it is $32498 after Canadian $5000 rebate and the longest in production so far.

If only looking at models designed from ground up as Bev , we have:

2022 Chevrolet Bolt EUV & Bolt
2022 Mini Cooper SE 3 door
2022 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range & Standard Range+
2022 VW ID4
2022 Mazda MX30

So in 11 years time, we have total of 6 models , maybe 8 if the newer Hyundai Ioniq 5 and Kia EV6 is available at low enough price

discouraging that not more to choose from

Dan

I think you are being a little unfair in your limitation of ground up BEV. This eliminates the Kona and Niro both of which are pretty capable BEVs.
'Its the batteries stupid'
YOu cannot make a 25000 car when you have to put a 10000 dollar battery in it.
One cannot demand automakers lose money when they could continue to profit on ICE cars.
It is also competition/supply/demand
The first person to make a $20000 BEV is an idiot. They are leaving money on the table.
One does not need to be half the price of the competition. Especially in a market where people buy Audis/Mercedes/Porsche that literally cost twice what the equivalent Toyota/Honda cost

 

[Puppethead]

Since batteries are still the most costly EV component, hard to make a cheap BEV profitable. Might as well add some size and bling to justify the higher costs.

Which is, no doubt, a major reason the MINI Cooper SE has a relatively short range. Smaller battery size keeps the cost and weight down, preserving the "go-kart handling". As someone who owns an SE and previously had an ICE MINI, the SE outperforms the ICE version. I'm personally quite satisfied with the range/weight ratio.

 

[John Lumsden]

Which is, no doubt, a major reason the MINI Cooper SE has a relatively short range. Smaller battery size keeps the cost and weight down, preserving the "go-kart handling". As someone who owns an SE and previously had an ICE MINI, the SE outperforms the ICE version. I'm personally quite satisfied with the range/weight ratio.

Puppethead and Miatadan - for clarification and referring to the first post in the thread - the MINI Cooper SE isn't a ground up BEV design is it?

 

[Calliope]

Since batteries are still the most costly EV component, hard to make a cheap BEV profitable.

Yeah, that's what I first thought - I'm not surprised that there aren't low cost BEVs, when compared to low cost ICEs.

It's also true that Americans love their big cars/SUVs and long drives (blame artificially cheap gas), and so it won't be very profitable to release a small BEV in the US.

 

[Puppethead]

Puppethead and Miatadan - for clarification and referring to the first post in the thread - the MINI Cooper SE isn't a ground up BEV design is it?

Nope, it's a retrofit into the ICE body. They did an impressive job, though, replacing the gas tank and drive train with batteries and putting the motor and heat pump where the engine would go. MINI literally builds ICE and electric vehicles on the same production line, intermixing models.

 

[miatadan]

I think you are being a little unfair in your limitation of ground up BEV. This eliminates the Kona and Niro both of which are pretty capable BEVs.
'Its the batteries stupid'
YOu cannot make a 25000 car when you have to put a 10000 dollar battery in it.
One cannot demand automakers lose money when they could continue to profit on ICE cars.
It is also competition/supply/demand
The first person to make a $20000 BEV is an idiot. They are leaving money on the table.
One does not need to be half the price of the competition. Especially in a market where people buy Audis/Mercedes/Porsche that literally cost twice what the equivalent Toyota/Honda cost

It is not necessary to have $10,000 battery, use smaller battery. Audis/Mercedes/Porsche can justify their price's but $43,699-49,199 for Kona electric or Kia Niro $44,995-54,695 is not when you can purchase BMW i4 Gran Coupe $54,990 The 2022 ICE Kona starts at $21999 so there is no why it is worth $21700 more to make it electric.

On the other hand BMW 4 Series Coupe ICE starts at $53,650 compared to BMW i4 Gran Coupe $54,990.

Dan

 

[miatadan]

Also the 2022 Audi Q4 e-tron starts at $59,950 . Does not take rocket science that the Audi is worth the $5295 over the $54,695 version of the 2021 Kia Niro SX Touring and it is possible that the 2022 Niro Ev's may be more expensive. Would choose the Audi over the 2021 Ford Mach-E Premium at $59,495

Dan

 

[ENirogus]

It is not necessary to have $10,000 battery, use smaller battery. Audis/Mercedes/Porsche can justify their price's but $43,699-49,199 for Kona electric or Kia Niro $44,995-54,695 is not when you can purchase BMW i4 Gran Coupe $54,990 The 2022 ICE Kona starts at $21999 so there is no why it is worth $21700 more to make it electric.

On the other hand BMW 4 Series Coupe ICE starts at $53,650 compared to BMW i4 Gran Coupe $54,990.

Dan

Now you are just being silly. Niro EV starts just under 40k. Kona 35. The BMW 4 series MSRP starts at 45, so 10k less than the EV.

The number if people who want an EV with limited range is small compared to the entire market.

I think automakers have determined the current sweet spot is 40kish and 250ish miles of range

I agree that the EV is not worth that much more than the ICE car, but I doubt the automakers are making excess profit on them right now

 

[miatadan]

Now you are just being silly. Niro EV starts just under 40k. Kona 35. The BMW 4 series MSRP starts at 45, so 10k less than the EV.

The number if people who want an EV with limited range is small compared to the entire market.

I think automakers have determined the current sweet spot is 40kish and 250ish miles of range

I agree that the EV is not worth that much more than the ICE car, but I doubt the automakers are making excess profit on them right now

Prices I am using is from manufacture websites ( Canadian ) Not US prices

Dan