Lingering misconceptions about EVs

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Raylo said:
But that would be balanced by total frustration at not being able to literally pull off any interstate interchange anywhere and be fueling within 2 minutes at the first station I pass.
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That's exactly how driving an ICE car was until the late 1970s or early 1980s. You had to plan where you'd gas up, especially on cross-country trips in the western US.

Yes EV charging isn't as ubiquitous as it needs to be, but it's been growing rapidly and the rate of acceleration is growing.
 
R P said:
You seem to be hell bent on not buying an EV, with your very lame excuses. I have been driving BEVs since 2019 and am on my 3rd one now. Looking ahead with Plugshare is pretty convenient and easy for planning a trip with an EV. Furthermore most EVs have onboard charging station location info, so you can see and plan while you are driving for where you want to charge. Driving an EV is different, but easy enough to learn and adapt. And remember, too, that 90+% EV driving is with charging at home.
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Exactly. If you do 3/4 of your driving based on home charging, you're still ahead financially, and it's way more convenient than having to stop for gas. As Bob and RP pointed out, PlugShare makes trip planning really, really easy. Now there are still a few places where charging infrastructure is too sparse. I actually live in one of them -- I wouldn't want to have a low-range EV like an early Nissan Leaf here if I couldn't charge at home -- but they're becoming increasingly rare.
 
Puppethead said:
That's exactly how driving an ICE car was until the late 1970s or early 1980s. You had to plan where you'd gas up, especially on cross-country trips in the western US.

Yes EV charging isn't as ubiquitous as it needs to be, but it's been growing rapidly and the rate of acceleration is growing.
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Later than that in some areas, actually. I nearly ran out of gas crossing Wyoming in 2003 because, having spent most of my life in much more populated areas, it never occurred to me that there were places you could travel 90 or 100 miles and not see a gas station.

And the election may not slow down improvement in highway fast charging, as most of the federal money for that is already committed and can't be rescinded. That includes 4 new fast charging stations in the works within 100 miles of me that should be in business within about 2 years.
 
Raylo said:
To me the only major shortfall of EVs ...
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You really need a better list of reasons:
  • My one way, 125 mile, daily commute to [DC | Baltimore | Philadelphia] has no chargers at the work parking.
  • My [Oil company|Oil Refinery|Oil import/export] employer forbids electric cars in their parking lots.
  • I tow a 6,000 lb boat trailer to the Chesapeake Bay every weekend.
  • My lawn care business is a trailer that carries 3,000 lbs of mowers, chain saws, trimmers, manure, and gas cans.
  • I have thousands of dollars of engine tools and diagnostic equipment and love to work on engines.
  • I gave up paint sniffing and cigarettes for the fragrance of gasoline and diesel fumes.
  • My parents will only help me buy a [gas | diesel] car but not any form of electric car.
  • My heart pacemaker has a warning to avoid EMI electric fields.
  • My MAGA neighbors have yard signs that read "BAN ELECTRIC CARS" and "DEATH TO WIND FARMS"
  • I only listen to AM talk and church radio.
  • On a Tesla test drive at 75 mph on cruise control, the car suddenly screeched to a stop in traffic scaring both me and my wife half to death.
My fellow EV owners and enthusiasts would nod our heads and synpatheticly post, "EVs aren't for everyone."

Bob Wilson
 
Cost per mile to fill up:

.16 rivian max at 48 cents
.18 my old Xterra at 16mpg, 20 gallons, 3.00 per gallon
Of course I could always fill my Xterra up with the cheap gas from home...
Oh, wait.....
So not sorry I got rid of it.
 
So ~200 miles for $32. That is about the equivalent per mile of my much larger ICE vehicle that can refuel in 5 minutes... literally anywhere. So, yes, it's a ripoff. Refueling EVs should be cheaper but the "system" that is unfolding, with proprietary networks, is obviously designed to extract as much $ from us as we are already paying for gas. IMO, this is a tragedy. And then in addition to paying the same per mile we have all the other inconveniences like much shorter range (Niro has only ~1/3 the range of my ICE), scarce fast chargers and slower refueling time. And please spare me the lame argument that "most" driving is at home where things are better. The bottom line is that these vehicles need to be good at both the home and away games.

ENirogus said:
compared to what?
even at .48 per kw, a 0-100 charge on my Niro will cost 32 bucks.
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Raylo said:
So ~200 miles for $32. That is about the equivalent per mile of my much larger ICE vehicle that can refuel in 5 minutes... literally anywhere. So, yes, it's a ripoff. Refueling EVs should be cheaper but the "system" that is unfolding, with proprietary networks, is obviously designed to extract as much $ from us as we are already paying for gas. IMO, this is a tragedy. And then in addition to paying the same per mile we have all the other inconveniences like much shorter range (Niro has only ~1/3 the range of my ICE), scarce fast chargers and slower refueling time. And please spare me the lame argument that "most" driving is at home where things are better. The bottom line is that these vehicles need to be good at both the home and away games.
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baloney
Using the most expensive available number, it is still cheaper to refuel an EV at a public charging station. That is ignoring the home charging at half the rate
Your ICE has over 700 miles of range? In 40 years I have never owned a car with 700 miles of range. Oh, they exist, most of them are hybrids.
Scarce fast charger?
baloney

When you have to make things up, you have already lost the argument
 
Nope, not BS. 2023 Toyota Tundra with 32-gal tank and 22 mpg on the highway which yields a theoretical range of 704 miles. I have pushed it past 600 miles several times with plenty of reserve. And I bet you have never been anywhere near your Niro's max range of 250, since running out of juice would be way worse than running out of gas.

You guys are missing my point. EVs are currently pretty darned good and are rapidly improving. It's the infrastructure out on the highways that is lacking... and the unregulated mess that is allowing all these proprietary charging networks and vendors selling the juice for like 4x the cost we get at home. I don't know how that will ever get resolved satisfactorily. IMO that is what is slowing EV adoption. At least in my case.

ENirogus said:
baloney
Using the most expensive available number, it is still cheaper to refuel an EV at a public charging station. That is ignoring the home charging at half the rate
Your ICE has over 700 miles of range? In 40 years I have never owned a car with 700 miles of range. Oh, they exist, most of them are hybrids.
Scarce fast charger?
baloney

When you have to make things up, you have already lost the argument
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Raylo said:
So ~200 miles for $32. That is about the equivalent per mile of my much larger ICE vehicle that can refuel in 5 minutes... literally anywhere. So, yes, it's a ripoff. Refueling EVs should be cheaper but the "system" that is unfolding, with proprietary networks, is obviously designed to extract as much $ from us as we are already paying for gas.
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We'll have to disagree about "ripoff". Fast DC charging networks are still expanding with attendant equipment, land, and grid connection costs. But there are savings:
  • "Parity" between gas and electric vehicles is closer to what is going on.
    • When fast EV charging stations become as common as gas pumps, the price will fall.
    • Already, Tesla SuperCharger rates at 10-20% cheaper than everyone else.
  • Free charging, another important difference:
    • My home charging is 1/3d the cost of fast DC charging.
    • Motels on the road offer free, L2, overnight charging, easily 200+ miles each day.
    • Motels at destinations offer free, L2 overnight charging, no destination costs.
    • I have used "free" (always ask) 110 VAC outlets at motels with outside outlets.
    • Local shopping malls and restaurants that want my business offer free L2 charging.
The Tesla App keeps charging statistics:
upload_2024-12-12_9-58-48.webp

I don't have a similar option with my 2017 BMW i3-REx but it is used for "goin' for groceries."

Bob Wilson
 
Well, I will agree with you that we essentially have parity in fueling costs between ICE and EV commercial fast charging. But to me it is still a ripoff considering that the base resource is so cheap... you know they get rates waaaaay cheaper than we pay at home even... especially in light of all the logistical inconveniences like short ranges and long charge time as compared to ICE refueling. And I don't believe you are correct that prices will eventually come down. These guys will game it out and create a captive market and buy politicians in order to keep prices artificially high. Just like our silly health care system. We will pay and pay and pay. That's what we do. As for me, that parity or anything even close, makes an EV a non-starter. I hope that changes, but I am not optimistic.
 
We’re fine.

Supercharger density more than doubled since 2019. Then over a year ago, CCS-1 charging became available even for my nearly 6 year old Tesla. Cost per kWh is running:
  • Cheapest - Tesla at Supercharger
  • Next - non-Tesla at Supercharger
  • Highest - all EVs at CCS-1 chargers
Tesla has at least eight years experience with Superchargers. The others, barely half and still suffer growing pains. I wish I could be more sympathetic but I’ve used CCS-1 charging stations and thank my lucky stars for the range extender in my BMW.

Bob Wilson
 
Raylo said:
Well, I will agree with you that we essentially have parity in fueling costs between ICE and EV commercial fast charging. But to me it is still a ripoff considering that the base resource is so cheap... you know they get rates waaaaay cheaper than we pay at home even... especially in light of all the logistical inconveniences like short ranges and long charge time as compared to ICE refueling. And I don't believe you are correct that prices will eventually come down. These guys will game it out and create a captive market and buy politicians in order to keep prices artificially high. Just like our silly health care system. We will pay and pay and pay. That's what we do. As for me, that parity or anything even close, makes an EV a non-starter. I hope that changes, but I am not optimistic.
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As someone from down the highway from you (Columbia, MD) I wanted to give my two cents. I am about 3 weeks into ownership of an EV, with our other car being a Hybrid SUV. Obviously EV ownership is a "to each their own," but I'd never think it was a rip-off.

We bought the car with the full intent that we will wait to put in a charger at home until 2025 or 2026. We got lucky in that we live a mile from a Howard County-owned free L2 charger, close enough that I can drop my kids off for school and (if the weather actually improves) walk home, and with my wife working from home, do what I need to do and have it full in 4-5 hours, walk back and get the car. Or I have my wife drop me off before I work on a weekend, and we go to pick it up several hours later. For those times that I have to have it filled quicker, there's an EA about 2 miles away near the collection of fast food restaurants, and multiple other fast chargers within 5-10 miles. Conveniently, they all seem to be situated in close walking distance to a sit-down and relax fast casual like Panera.

For comparison, when I lived in Frederick, I would rarely have filled up other than Costco because of price, and that Costco (and the one in Columbia) have the added fun of a 30 minute wait before you can pump. When I fill the SUV there's really only a couple places I'd go here in Columbia, and they all have waits unless you go at 8 or 9 at night.

Yes, EV ownership requires a change in habits. I'm still having trouble on the "I'm down to 60% anxiety" that in an ICE would have me thinking about when to refuel (I do the same thing with my cell phone despite knowing that 100 is not good for it). The idea that you only fill your car to 80% is weird coming from gas-filling. It is definitely more like the 70s and 80s, when Shell would hand out a free road map with just the Shell stations on it, so you could plan where to stop well ahead of time.

Maryland is one of the states that is taking EV seriously. I sense that between apps, the opening of the Tesla chargers and time, the number of chargers will multiply quickly to the point that they're almost as ubiquitous as gas stations near major highways.

Of course, I'm still in the novelty stage where I'm playing around with the different apps to see what works best for my needs.
 
Just curious, do you have a 240 VAC outlet, say plugged into an electric dryer or kitchen range and oven near where the EV is parked at night?

L2 charging even at 30-32 amps at 240 VAC is a real blessing. L1 charging can help but is more survival mode than practical. My Model 3 would get about 5 miles of range every L1 hour. For 8-10 hours at home, 40-50 miles, is 'less bad'. It sure beats slogging through a cold, windy, rain.

Bob Wilson
 
The availability of free charging in some places is a non-trivial factor for many people. In both places I've had my EV -- San Francisco and then Hilo, Hawaii -- a couple of shopping centers I frequent have offered free L2 charging, though the ones here limit it to an hour. That's usually the longest I'm there anyway. I don't drive that much -- maybe 500 miles a month or slightly more -- and get the electricity for 30 or 40 of them absolutely free. That's like a free gallon of gas for an ICE car that gets good mileage.
 
Jan 11, I will be at Port Isabel to witness the next Starship launch. There is a restaurant with free, L2 charging, available at night, six, short blocks away. But I'm just there for a couple of days before driving back.

When my solar roof is in, I'll charge my EV and PHEV during the day and avoid passing through the solar battery storage. It also means I won't be dumping any excess electrons into the grid.

Bob Wilson
 
Yes, I do. In anticipation of getting an EV someday a couple years ago I daisy chained a 240/30 line from my dryer into the adjacent garage. Running a new 240/50 line would be a major project but the 30 would work fine for me here since I would have only 1 EV and it is a single garage. I have never had any worries about home charging and local driving with an EV. At some point I may sell the Vette and get an EV, so I wanted to be ready.

My worries are strictly for road tripping, even shortish road trips to friends' houses, none of which would have EVSE, or if they do will not have extra EVSE for guests. And since I am retired, I don't have a commute or enough local driving to justify getting a strictly city EV. Whatever I would buy would cost more than the gas to run my ICE, that I would need to keep for road trips, for 15 or 20 years. Eventually I will get an EV that has the range to do road trips, and the highway infrastructure will improve and if it works out then I might be able to let the ICE go. But I don't see that happening soon, because of the weak and rip-off expensive public charging infrastructure and any of the EVs that come close to having the necessary range and capacity are still too $$$.

We just did a typical trip over Christmas to sister in law's house. About 160 miles away, a good bit of traffic, one crash delay on the return. Plus, some local miles there. I gassed up my vehicle the day before we left, and I still have over 1/3 tank left after getting home. Haven't even had to think about fueling. And we passed literally thousands of gas stations along the route if we needed it. If we had been in an EV most of the trip would have been confounded by having to figure out how and where to get at least one charge, but probably two. Then finding the time to go do that. I don't recall seeing a single commercial charge point, although there might have been one or two around somewhere. I am not ready for that yet. And if circumstances required that we needed to find a charge along the return trip we might have been SOL.... or incurred a lengthy delay.


bwilson4web said:
Just curious, do you have a 240 VAC outlet, say plugged into an electric dryer or kitchen range and oven near where the EV is parked at night?

L2 charging even at 30-32 amps at 240 VAC is a real blessing. L1 charging can help but is more survival mode than practical. My Model 3 would get about 5 miles of range every L1 hour. For 8-10 hours at home, 40-50 miles, is 'less bad'. It sure beats slogging through a cold, windy, rain.

Bob Wilson
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Raylo said:
Yes, I do. In anticipation of getting an EV someday a couple years ago I daisy chained a 240/30 line from my dryer into the adjacent garage. Running a new 240/50 line would be a major project but the 30 would work fine for me here since I would have only 1 EV and it is a single garage. I have never had any worries about home charging and local driving with an EV. At some point I may sell the Vette and get an EV, so I wanted to be ready.

My worries are strictly for road tripping, even shortish road trips to friends' houses, none of which would have EVSE, or if they do will not have extra EVSE for guests. And since I am retired, I don't have a commute or enough local driving to justify getting a strictly city EV. Whatever I would buy would cost more than the gas to run my ICE, that I would need to keep for road trips, for 15 or 20 years. Eventually I will get an EV that has the range to do road trips, and the highway infrastructure will improve and if it works out then I might be able to let the ICE go. But I don't see that happening soon, because of the weak and rip-off expensive public charging infrastructure and any of the EVs that come close to having the necessary range and capacity are still too $$$.

We just did a typical trip over Christmas to sister in law's house. About 160 miles away, a good bit of traffic, one crash delay on the return. Plus, some local miles there. I gassed up my vehicle the day before we left, and I still have over 1/3 tank left after getting home. Haven't even had to think about fueling. And we passed literally thousands of gas stations along the route if we needed it. If we had been in an EV most of the trip would have been confounded by having to figure out how and where to get at least one charge, but probably two. Then finding the time to go do that. I don't recall seeing a single commercial charge point, although there might have been one or two around somewhere. I am not ready for that yet. And if circumstances required that we needed to find a charge along the return trip we might have been SOL.... or incurred a lengthy delay.
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Not necessarily. In an EV with 300 miles range (say, a Chevy Equinox, plus any number of somewhat pricier models), you could almost make it there and back without charging. If you could plug into a simple wall socket overnight, you'd very likely get enough charge to make the trip home, but if it were me I'd stop along the way home for a quick charge just to give myself a bit of a margin of error. 15 minutes or less of DC fast charging would be plenty. Even an L2 would probably do it if you were willing to stop for a leisurely lunch of an hour and a quarter or so. I don't like to drive that far without taking a break anyway, so for me that would be zero inconvenience. I used to do precisely this when I lived in San Francisco and visited my brother in the Sierra foothills about 170 miles from my house. It was never the slightest problem.
 
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