Is the EV range embellished?

[Ken7]

The EPA range certainly should not be taken as the range at 70 MPH. Even if you look at the separated city/highway ranges, rather than the combined figure, it's going to be less range than at 70 MPH. As I recall, the EPA's highway driving range tests average 55 MPH.

All cars rapidly lose range at higher highway speeds, gasmobiles included. (Aero drag increases as the square of speed, if I recall correctly.) It's just more noticeable for BEVs because their range is more limited.

As I've said many times, I wish the EPA would issue a range chart, rather than just a single number for range; a chart showing ranges at different speeds: 35, 45, 55, 65, 75, and perhaps even 85 MPH. That would really help educate the public on the advantages of using less energy, of driving at moderate speeds on the highway.

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I was simply talking about the estimated range shown on the car’s range estimate, not the EPA range. Two different things. The EPA estimate is static and the car’s estimated range is dynamic and ever changing.

So my point was that the range estimate in my Tesla, regardless of whether I’ve switched from local driving to highway over the past days or week, is quite accurate, whereas on the Clarity it’s not. Driving at 70 in the Tesla takes much less of a toll on range estimates than it does in the Clarity. Explanations for the Clarity’s range fluctuations have been given here and I believe they are correct.

So knowing that I’ve been driving locally over the past week and will now be doing highway driving, will result in me throwing out the indicated 55 mile range estimate on the Clarity. That range was accurate for a continuation of local driving, not a sudden switch to highway driving. Armed with that awareness a Clarity driver should be fine. It just works very differently, and generally more accurately in a wide range of driving conditions, on a Tesla.

 

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

I was simply talking about the estimated range shown on the car’s range estimate, not the EPA range.

Oh! Sorry, my bad for not reading your comment closely enough.

 

[Ben Washburn]

A real world example from today's driving. Started the day with full charge and EV range of 48.5 miles. Drove 46.2 miles before the ICE came on at the 2 bar level. 80% of those 46.2 miles were at 65-73 mph with A/C on in Sport mode with max regen.
That is very typical of what I see on a daily basis from the car. So yes the EV range is overly optimistic. It's great that we have so many owners getting 60+ EV miles and I am quite sure I could do the same if 90% of the driving was well below 50 mph but once you hit 65+ the range goes down quickly. Not complaining it's still a very economical car with a great many fine features.

On the other hand I find the ICE MPG on long trips to be much better than estimated. Two recent trips of over 200 miles each resulted in 50 mpg at 75+ mph...excellent!

Well, you're definitely not going to get max EV range in Sport mode. But I've had the same experience in full HV with two bars, well over 50 mpg.

 

[rodeknyt]

Well, you're definitely not going to get max EV range in Sport mode. But I've had the same experience in full HV with two bars, well over 50 mpg.

You certainly can get as much EV mileage in Sport mode as any other mode. You just have to take it easy on the accelerator. When the power needle is pointing to whatever place on the arc, the amount of power being drawn is exactly the same in all modes...you just get there quicker in Sport mode. It’s just the mapping of the accelerator that changes.

And the advantage of Sport mode is being able to lock regent so you don’t have to use the paddles. Provides more put back without having to think about it.

 

[Ben Washburn]

You certainly can get as much EV mileage in Sport mode as any other mode. You just have to take it easy on the accelerator. When the power needle is pointing to whatever place on the arc, the amount of power being drawn is exactly the same in all modes...you just get there quicker in Sport mode. It’s just the mapping of the accelerator that changes.

And the advantage of Sport mode is being able to lock regent so you don’t have to use the paddles. Provides more put back without having to think about it.

Sure, you're right. If you go to Sport mode and milk the throttle to achieve the same performance as in normal mode you'd end up at the same place. And sure, the one advantage is the permanent regen. I made the (false) assumption that part of going to Sport mode would be to achieve the peppier response. But that doesn't have to be the case--you can go to sport mode, be correspondingly easier on the throttle, and still have permanent regen.

 

[ozy]

I commute 66 miles a day on flat freeways and So. Cal temperatures. I am usually on Sports mode with no climate control. I would say that the 47 mile estimate that Honda gives is pretty accurate over the long term. I completely ignore whatever the car "predicts" because I know that overall you're not going to get much beyond 47. Also, I have not found that extreme attention to regenerative braking, eco mode etc has made much of a difference. At this point I don't really pay any attention to any of this because even after I run out EV juice I have no problem with the slightly noise ICE mode. In fact, when I'm on ICE on the freeway I often can't even tell that I've run out of EV.

 

[markc]

I get better mileage on the freeway when I use cruise control even at speeds of 80 MPH. I live 18 miles from the local casino and I only use 9 miles of EV. Seems as though cruise control keeps it at a steady pace. I notice the needle is often in the charge zone.

The onboard software does a good job of maintaining a constant velocity and (when in HV) modulating the use of the gas engine. I try to use the cruise control whenever I can.

 

[victor_2019]

my experience is that the range estimated is pretty accurate as long as your habits don't change.
if you have the same commute in the same conditions then the range estimate is very accurate. as soon as variables change, the estimated range will be off.

in the summer I was consistently getting 80 km per charge estimated and actual traveled, mostly in city driving/short highway trips. but as soon as I go on a longer highway trip at 120 km/h the actual range will obviously not match the estimate anymore.

since the estimated range is based on a past average, it takes some time for the estimate to be accurate again when conditions change.

now that it's winter, my estimated range is 50 km for a charge, however I discovered that heating makes a huge difference.
One day I used the car for many short trips and used the preheating a lot without having the car plugged in and I could only do 30 km on one charge.

 

[hamr4267]

I've noticed that driving on the highway I don't get the range that the EV initially states. Today was an example. Granted, I was driving at 68-70mph, which was just keeping up with traffic, so not hypermiling. But the weather conditions were ideal with temps in the mid 70s and very light winds. I never touched the brake, so speed was consistent. My range when I started out indicated 55 miles, but I ran out of electric at 40 miles! That's 15 miles short of predicted and only 73% of the stated EV range. This has happened before in similar driving conditions.

As a comparison, driving my Model S exactly the same way, I'll generally get 95% of the stated range. So I can't help but think, unless you drive very conservatively and keep your speeds well below 70mph, you won't get anywhere near the stated range.

i did the same test under similar conditions, i got 36

 

[DucRider]

The EPA 2 cycle highway range test tops out at 65 mph and has an average speed of 48 mph. The Clarity Electric is rated at 43 miles on the highway portion. Not surprised that at 70 mph it gets less than that (can't cheat physics). The efficiency loss between 55 and 70 mph is about 20%
Teslas are among the few vehicles that actually score higher range on the EPA hwy cycle than the UDDS (city) portion, and the range hit will be correspondingly less. There are a number of factors in play, one being the lower CD on the Tesla, and possibly driving a dual motor model that has one motor "geared" for higher speed efficiency.

 

[Dan Albrich]

my .02: I bought my Clarity in late September 2018. I live in Western Oregon (Eugene), and we had a long summer that year so temps were great. When I got the car, the charge went to 47 estimate EV range. No not kidding, an exact match for what they say you will get. I was a complete newbie with EV and PHEV and hybrid for that matter. Didn't think much of it. The estimated range was exactly the what the brochure said.

What they didn't tell me is that in the winter time, my range even that first year dipped to 25 estimated EV miles, and what I actually got was lower still. The entire time I've owned Clarity, my actual miles when measured have been 2-3 miles less than the guess-o-meter. Anyway, since no one else in these forums saw such low numbers I paid my dealer for an hour (at about $100) to check my traction battery which turned out to be close to normal. 52.2 amp hours instead of 55 but not huge.

I later learned that me living on a hill, and running the cabin heat really cuts the EV range. But no, I don't think I'm doing anything weird. I won't move to fix the "hill" problem, and running the heater in the winter isn't a radical idea, nor is needing the windshield fan on in my home state which seems to average about 90% humidity in the winter time.

So not disappointed, but I tell people I actually get 30 miles of EV range which is a better estimate for reality in my case. Sometimes less, sometimes more, but not a lot more. This past summer, my best EV mileage was about 40 EV miles, and at the moment I get about 30 (it's been a really mild winter here, with highs and lows around 50 degrees F).

And nope, not disappointed I bought the car. Through good luck, my actual need is 30 miles a day, so I only rarely burn gas. And I love the car.

PS: and not that I have any desire to do so, if I simply press HV before going up my hill and then turn it off at the top, I can greatly skew my numbers up (maybe gain 10 miles of estimated EV range). I don't run in HV mode at all-- save long trips.

 

[DucRider]

We (the local chapter of the Electric Auto Association) spend a lot of time relating what to actually expect when driving an electric vehicle. The reduced winter range is high on that list.
Not that hard to find the info with a little research, and counting on dealerships to learn about any car, electric or not, is a hit and miss proposition (more miss than hit in my opinion).
With our Clarity Electric, it's very easy to exceed the 89 mile range in mild to warm weather. Hot weather puts it about spot on. Cold weather will drop it to 60 - 70 miles, depending on lots of factors (the Electric version has a heat pump which helps a lot). Worst case scenario is 30ish miles of freeway in a cold rain with a stop long enough to cold soak the battery and car before a return trip. Last time I tried that I dropped to 55 on the freeway to manaage and maintain a 3-5 mile buffer on estimated range to get home. Pulled in the driveway and the app showed 5% SOC remaining. There were multiple places to stop and top off, just didn't want (or need) to take the time to do so.
We'll once again have about 5,000 sq ft at the Portland Auto Show in a few weeks. Owners sharing first hand experience is one of the best resources for those interested in learning about EV's.

 

[Bbeardb]

Be advised: Stupid question here. How do you all measure your actual range to estimated range? Reset trip A or B? Remember odometer reading when starting the trip? Remembering beginning estimated EV range when you finish the trip?

It’s not something I’ve never bothered to think about it as I went in knowing the range is merely an estimate. Also, our trips are essentially always in (shorter) or out (longer) of range, and seemingly not ever cutting it close.

I wish they’d have a current KWH in use and KWH left meter as an option. If there’s an OBD program that does that, please let me know.

 

[JCA]

Be advised: Stupid question here. How do you all measure your actual range to estimated range? Reset trip A or B? Remember odometer reading when starting the trip? Remembering beginning estimated EV range when you finish the trip?

It’s not something I’ve never bothered to think about it as I went in knowing the range is merely an estimate. Also, our trips are essentially always in (shorter) or out (longer) of range, and seemingly not ever cutting it close.

I wish they’d have a current KWH in use and KWH left meter as an option. If there’s an OBD program that does that, please let me know.

I have the Trip A odometer set to auto-reset on charge (beware it will reset whenever you plug in, not just when fully charged); it's in the vehicle settings somewhere.

I too wish there was a "current kW' display; it would make it really easy to see the effects of driving at different speeds, heat, AC, etc. One member here seemed to indicate his Scangauge OBDII could show "current", but I haven't yet figured out how to get that on my BAFX device using Torque Pro. I'd love to log that along with the rest of the data I collect.

The BAFX/Torque combination does show (and log) the battery State-of-Charge percentage, which I also wish the car just displayed as a number instead of the very-weirdly-calibrated "fuel gauge" style (where the top bar doesn't go away until around 85% SOC, and 2 bars remain at 10% SOC, with some not-quite-linear tracking in between).

 

[KentuckyKen]

The way I do it is like @JCA with the Trip A set to reset at each charge. I also set Trip B to reset at fill up which for me is fun to see how long I go between gassing (the car not me!). Then I manually record the miles driven that day from the Trip A log and plug in for my scheduled charge for early the next morning. Im lazy, so that keeps me from having to do any math for the miles driven. The next morning, I record the estimated EV and HV ranges so I now know what approximate range to expect according to the temperature since I recorded temps for one year.
One of the reasons I bought the ChargePoint Level 2 EVSE is because it gives me the kWhs for each charge. Then I track miles/kWh, cents/mile (using all utility charges that are usage dependent, figuring the monthly base charge is part of the house usage that I would have had to pay anyway. But that’s academic since I have enough solar production to zero out the house and car each year). Then miles/kWh x 33.7 gives me the MPGe, which is how the EPA does it, I think from posts here. And for fun I calculate kWhs/100 miles.
It’s a shame the Clarity gives us so little information compared to other EVs.

 

[Ray B]

Like @KentuckyKen, I have the same trip resets for charging and fill-ups. When I'm bored I compare the initial EV range estimate to the [remaining EV range estimate + miles since last charge] {REVRE+MSLC?} to see if I trend above or below the initial range. I do the math in my head - sometimes while chewing gum.

Most times the initial range estimate is close as long as I stick to my routine commute. I can routinely get 50+ miles of range at full charge (high 40's when I charge to ~93% which is my habit) even when the temps are in the 20's (F), as I drive a lot of suburban streets / rural roads averaging ~40 mph.

But when my son turns on the cabin heater or I spend any time at all on the highway, I can easily watch the 'REVRE+MSLC' trend drop pretty quickly.

 

[DucRider]

I can routinely get 50+ miles of range at full charge (high 40's when I charge to ~93% which is my habit)

Curious as to why you only charge to 93%? Do you feel the extra ~1kWh buffer adds significant life over the 4 kWh Honda has built in?

Much of this type of behavior seems to have carried over from the reputation of the Leaf passively cooled battery (and the Battery University studies done on small cell phone batteries with no buffer or thermal management).

We charged out Fit EV to 100% virtually every day for almost 5 years and 50K miles with no significant range degradation (about 1 to 2 miles, but hard to quantify). While the fit batteries were of different chemistry, they were air cooled instead of the liquid cooling on the Clarity. Our experience was the norm and not the exception with the Fit EV.

 

[Ray B]

Curious as to why you only charge to 93%? Do you feel the extra ~1kWh buffer adds significant life over the 4 kWh Honda has built in?

Much of this type of behavior seems to have carried over from the reputation of the Leaf passively cooled battery (and the Battery University studies done on small cell phone batteries with no buffer or thermal management).

We charged out Fit EV to 100% virtually every day for almost 5 years and 50K miles with no significant range degradation (about 1 to 2 miles, but hard to quantify). While the fit batteries were of different chemistry, they were air cooled instead of the liquid cooling on the Clarity. Our experience was the norm and not the exception with the Fit EV.

For a few reasons I settled on 93%. True that Honda includes a top and bottom end buffer and thermal management to ensure a long and healthy lifetime. I convinced myself that 93% is a good limit and is more than I need for my general daily route. I may be wrong but I understand that the buffer adapts during the battery's lifetime and as the capacity degrades the buffer will shrink to maintain the same range. Presumably in at some point (5, 10, 20 years?) the top end buffer will be gone and charging to 100% will start to accelerate damage. Just speculation on my part. So one will probably not observe a decrease in range even though the battery capacity is decreasing. We probably won't know for a few years what the rate of capacity decline is for the Clarity's battery, but I don't expect anyone's baseline EV range to fall off for a long while.

I also know that the BMS draws down the charging rate as the SoC goes >95% to protect the battery. If 6 kW is too fast for the high 90's SoC then regen with a full-ish battery is going to hurt more. Of course this is accounted for by the BMS using the ICE start-up method (still a little mysterious), but in my mind I want to limit the amount of stress I am adding to the battery. I also don't particularly enjoy having the ICE start up when the battery is full or close to full. It seems to be triggered pretty easily at 100% SoC - even by mild braking, especially when the temperatures are low.

Probably overcautious from most people's perspective, but it is how I choose to run it. Also 93% is my normal target but probably 2-3 times per month I go to full charge.

 

[Dan Albrich]

Just to add a +1 to the auto-trip meter resets. I didn't know how to do that for a long time, but is easy to enable in our settings menu. From that, I started to see how the guess-o-meter works and can do that simple "math" in my head as I drive. For example, if the trip meter shows 10 miles driven, and EV estimated range left is 22 then it's likely it will show 32 miles EV range for my next drive. It helps me to understand why estimated (and actual) EV range goes up and down, and by how much.

For example, this morning, unseasonably warm at like 55 degrees and forecast for say 65 degrees today (balmy warm for a winter day here). I didn't use cabin heat at all on my way into work, and yep, I'll see the estimated EV range go up a few miles.

 

[Cash Traylor]

Yeah, my guessometer is showing about 35 miles range, and I average about 30+ miles. This has gone down by 10 miles since purchase 2 years ago (was showing and averaging 45 miles). I will go back for another BCT (which should never cost 2 hours of labor, under warranty Honda USA says they are included with ANY paid service) and see where I am at on that. It has lost about 5 amps in 18 months, so will see, what the next test shows next month (due service and 2 year inspections). Not concerned, love the car, want a new battery in 5 years (warranty)! Cheers, Cash