Is running EV charging stations a legitimate business?

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Mark W

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Does anyone understand the economics of running charging stations? Can a company make money doing it? The reason that I ask is that so many charging stations don't work. To me, that means that the companies that run/maintain them don't make money from their operation. If they were making money from them operating, then they would fix them when they don't work. Also, it seems like the government spends a ton of money on incentives to get them built, but not to keep them running. Once they are built, do the operators make money running them? Gasoline pumps seem to be built to run reliably. You never see a gas pump inoperable for very long.

My understanding that Electrify America was built from money from Volkswagen's dieselgate settlement. Electrify America stations are notoriously infamous for not working as designed. Either not functioning at all, or charging much more slowly than they should. This means to me that EA is either incompetent, or it not economically advantageous for them to make sure they are running. The EA station nearest me charges 64 cents/kwh. Electricity rates are high here in CT, somewhere around 24 cents/kwh. It would seem that there is enough margin there to make money.

Tesla has proven that they can and do maintain their chargers. They work as they should almost all of the time. As we know, Tesla is opening up their charging network. Is that going to make them a lot of money? I'm guessing that right now, their superchargers are not a profit center for them with current charging? Will they simply take over the entire EV charging market? Does anyone care?
 
Most of these charging locations lose money. The main reason is demand charge that the utility companies charge. To over come the demand charge, the location has to have very, very high usage 24/7. Battery storage is helpful, but probably pretty expensive.

Now add vandalism, broken screens, payment issues, two to four chargers at each location, different charger manufactures, and design issues by different car manufactures, old 50 KW chargers, and you can see why there are so many broken or partly working locations.

Tesla overcomes some of those issues by installing 12 or more chargers per location, not have screens, short cables, payment is by a Tesla account, selling a bunch of Teslas, charge pricing by time-of-day, and only allowing Teslas to use the locations.

EVgo has said they plan on replacing the old 50 KW chargers where the usage and infrastructure is there.

Having your state charge an annual maintenance charge for those locations paid with tax money would help.
 
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For current Tesla Magic Dock locations, does Tesla charge more for charging for non-Teslas than Teslas?
 
Charging stations aren't really for making money. It's for economies of scale because the supercharging stations are using multiple Tesla onboard chargers, which in turn provide a cost advantage for Tesla EVs. If there is NEVI funding available for Superchargers, then it indirectly subsidizes Tesla's EVs and other divisions (i.e. megapacks, powerwall 3, etc.) via shared components.
 
Think of chargiing statiosn likie Gas stations.. very little prfit at the retail level for gasoline, all the profits are inside the sore. The coffes, pop, snacks etc.. thats where stations make thier money and is why EV Chargers need to be located at gas stations or create their own convenince stores with chargers. Circle K does it right , here in Minnesota they are installing at Holiday Station Stores/Circle K stores
 
So, are we expecting the government to build and maintain our modern day "gas stations"? I guess my stance is that if they can help subsidize getting them built, that's fine, but it seems there should be competition in managing them and maintaining them, and profiting from them. If it's true that selling the electricity is not profitable, then why does a company like EVGo exist?

I know why Electrify America was created, but is it it's own company now? When is Volkswagen's settlement for dieselgate over?
 
EVgo corporate enters into franchisee lease agreements with site hosts and takes a cut of the charging revenue. Unlike the publicly traded EVgo, EA is a private subsidiary for VW (and Siemens) where the losses are used to offset tax revenues in California and USA (aka slap on the wrist).

As for diselgate, the mandated 2 quarter cycle spending settlement will be over around Q2 2026 (via Electrify America). The only true winner is Tesla because NEVI funding effectively indirectly subsidizes shared EV components. Parts like magic docks and J3400 adapters are essentially paid by the US taxpayers through economies of scale & extreme bulk manufacturing.
 
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Mark W said:
why does a company like EVGo exist
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Here in Washington state, at least five stations where paid for with taxpayer money. An additional 5 stations paid for by the Washington state taxpayers are now Shell Recharge locations.

Nissan also helped pay for a few EVgo stations in Seattle.

Financially, they are barely holding on. https://www.google.com/finance/quote/EVGO:NASDAQ

As far as EA, Washington state teamed up with GM to help pay for a couple of locations.

Also here in Washington state, we pay 75 dollars a year until July of 2025 to supply grant money for charging locations. After July 2025, the 75 bucks goes into general transportation money pile.
 
It seems like highway rest stops are the obvious place for Level 3 charging stations. In the northeast, it seems that there are many rest stops that don't have them yet. These rest stops already have the restrooms, restaurants, etc. Why don't all rest stops have them? Do most rest stops in your area of the country have them? Again, I don't know the economics of rest stops either. Are those owned/run by the states, or private entities?
 
Mark W said:
It seems like highway rest stops are the obvious place for Level 3 charging stations. In the northeast, it seems that there are many rest stops that don't have them yet. These rest stops already have the restrooms, restaurants, etc. Why don't all rest stops have them? Do most rest stops in your area of the country have them? Again, I don't know the economics of rest stops either. Are those owned/run by the states, or private entities?
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Our rest stops are owned and run by the state of Washington. Only two out of 48 rest stops have L2 charging. None have DC charging.

I think there are a few issues with placing a charging station at public rest stops. One, vandalism, two, the cost doesn't pencil out, and three, the state is getting into the private business territory.
 
Mark W said:
It seems like highway rest stops are the obvious place for Level 3 charging stations.
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Maybe, but in my part of the country there are basically just rest stops near the state borders (owned by the states), and generally none intrastate. Kansas has regular stops on their turnpike, so maybe that kind of arrangement would be good.
 
Mark W said:
Does anyone understand the economics of running charging stations? Can a company make money doing it?
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If you make money selling EV cars and trucks, it does. For example, Nissan's Leaf and CHAdeMO chargers that initially were found at Nissan dealers.

Bob Wilson
 
teslarati97 said:
... As for diselgate, the mandated 2 quarter cycle spending settlement will be over around Q2 2026 (via Electrify America). The only true winner is Tesla because NEVI funding effectively indirectly subsidizes shared EV components. Parts like magic docks and J3400 adapters are essentially paid by the US taxpayers through economies of scale & extreme bulk manufacturing.
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So, if the mandated spending is over in 2026, and by that time Tesla has monopolized the charging market, then EA can just cut their losses, declare bankruptcy and close down their remaining chargers that are actually functioning by then?
 
Mark W said:
EA can just cut their losses, declare bankruptcy
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I thought EA was created from a court settlement for diesel cheating:
https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2017-04/documents/nationalzevinvestmentplan.pdf

My reading suggests a 10 year time limit on $1.6 billion from April 2017. That gives EA until April 2027 before VW can 'pull the plug.'

BTW, I've charged at two supercharger sites with the "magic dock" at the charging lanes. Both were 250 kW stations and one, Vicksburg MS, was retro-fitted.

Bob Wilson
 
bwilson4web said:
I thought EA was created from a court settlement for diesel cheating:
https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2017-04/documents/nationalzevinvestmentplan.pdf

My reading suggests a 10 year time limit on $1.6 billion from April 2017. That gives EA until April 2027 before VW can 'pull the plug.'

BTW, I've charged at two supercharger sites with the "magic dock" at the charging lanes. Both were 250 kW stations and one, Vicksburg MS, was retro-fitted.

Bob Wilson
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Whether it's 2026 or 2027, my point is, is the requirement of Volkswagen to simply spend $X billion dollars on charging infrastructure? If charging isn't a profitable business, then they have no incentive for building anything that is reliable or that leaves a sustainable business afterward.
 
I should clarify that it is four 30-month cycles between California Air Resources Board ($200M per cycle) and four 30-month cycles for EPA ($300M per cycle). Cycle 4 is from Q3 2024 to Q4 2026, but the money just has to be spent in the cycle window.

The forced spending is for both advertisement/awareness campaigns and charging infrastructure.
 
Mark W said:
Whether it's 2026 or 2027, my point is, is the requirement of Volkswagen to simply spend $X billion dollars on charging infrastructure? If charging isn't a profitable business, then they have no incentive for building anything that is reliable or that leaves a sustainable business afterward.
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Which is why I think GM,Ford, stellantis etc..need to get togther and buy out EA. They can then set up plug and play across all of thier EV brands, discount charging if you buy THEIR vehicles etc... (no more free charging though.)

They all contribute to the cost ...spreading that costs across 3-8 other EV manufactures and keeps Tesla in check ..stopping a potential monopoly on charging infrastructer.
 
OneEV said:
Which is why I think GM,Ford, stellantis etc..need to get togther and buy out EA. They can then set up plug and play across all of thier EV brands, discount charging if you buy THEIR vehicles etc... (no more free charging though.)

They all contribute to the cost ...spreading that costs across 3-8 other EV manufactures and keeps Tesla in check ..stopping a potential monopoly on charging infrastructer.
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Well, they have announced they are making their own, it's called IONNA. I'll believe it when I see it.
https://twitter.com/OutofSpecPod/status/1756032648642777100

This just adds to my lack of understanding of who pays for charging stations to be built, who owns them, and who is responsible for maintaining them.
 
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