Intermittent Heat -- Help

[ericy]

Stopped by again today. They do think it has something to do with the PTC cabin heater and yes they have no clue how to fix this car. What they told me this morning is that they tested it against another Kona EV on the lot using their computer. They could get the other Kona to get the heater to turn on/off with the computer, but could only get ours to turn on/off once and a while. So they were talking about having to replace the PTC heater, which they told us is located behind the dashboard, which would require them disassembling the dashboard in order to get to it. They were waiting to get permission from Hyundai to order the parts they needed. As first he said they could probably get the part in 1-2 days. This afternoon my wife stopped by to extend the loaner car and was told we might not get the car back for 3-4 more weeks. Not sure if this means the part isn't readily available or not. I had been pushing the theory that there was an issue with the temperature sensor from the start, but after a week and a half they are finally getting around to this idea--apparently they were going through a series of steps that Hyundai was directing them to try.

After hearing this, I called Hyundai Consumer affairs and opened a case on this issue. We leased our car and it is only 2 months only with maybe 2500 miles. I raised the issue that we have a lemon and want a new vehicle or some kind of monetary compensation since we are paying for a car we do not have and cannot drive--possibly for a total of 6 weeks. Was told they are looking into what can be done for us and that a case manager has been assigned and should reach out to us in two days.--Ugh.

We like the car and have enjoyed driving it. Also installed a home charger and we now have to buy gas for a basic Elantra courtesy car which isn't even close to the Kona EV in amenities. The saga continues

I know it sucks, but it sounds like they might be on the right path.

Other people have had long waits getting parts (gearboxes). My guess is that they dont have any in stock in the US, so it needs to be ordered from somewhere else where airfreight isn't an option.

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[electriceddy]

Correct. It has what is called a PTC heater as in positive temperature coefficient. Meaning, as it heats up. The current draw goes down, so it sort of self regulates. That's the way I understand it.

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More info on the operation of PTC type heater:
https://gmnameplate.com/company/blog/what-are-ptc-heaters

 

[JFree]

I'm not surprised they have yet given the go ahead from Hyundai. The PTC is a $1600 part, they will probably bill Hyundai at least the same in shop labor . If I was Hyundai I would want to be sure it was the PTC. That said it really does sound like the PTC.

Looks like in NYS if the same problem cannot be repaired after four or more attempts, or if your car is out of service for 30 or more days, you may be entitled to a new car or refund under you lemon law. I think your options are to sue Hyundai or go through an approved arbitration program. I believe the better business bureau provides free arbitration (To file a complaint through the Bureau's AUTO LINE program call (800) 955-5100) and New York State Attorney General's provides an arbitration program with payment of a $200 filing fee.

Yeah I looked up the Lemon Law stuff. Do you know how they determine four or more attempts. They've tried fixing it for 2 weeks, with different tries each time, but technically only one service call. Will probably try to call the State on Monday to see how they would interpret 2 weeks of attempts

 

[apu]

Sorry I used to live in New York but never had to deal with this problem personally, so I won't be much help to you. I would imagine it's 4 Individual visits.

 

[JFree]

Here's the latest. Hyundai had them pull one heater part from the new Kona they had on the lot and try it in our car. That didn't work. The problem is the PTC heater itself so they tried ordering a part on Friday. They found out today there are none in the US and will have to get one from S Korea. Unfortunately they have no clue as to how long it could take to get the part--Service Manger's comment was it could be one week or could take 3-4 weeks. They have no clue as to how long it might take.

I then asked if they pulled one part from the new car, can't they pull the PTC from that car. They said no as it requires the disassembly of the dashboard and then they would have a new car they can't sell.

We do have a case open now with the Hyundai's national Consumer Affairs Department. They have been intervening with the local dealer (who was not happy by the call from Hyundai CA).

I also called the NYS Attorney General's office, Lemon Law division, who informed me that it is either 4 separate attempts to fix the same problem or the dealer has your car for 30 days or more. Ours is now at the dealer for 14 days. If it really takes 3 more weeks to get the part, we might have a right to get a new car, but for now we just have to wait.

 

[JFree]

Day 29 and still no car solution. No one at the dealer could give us information as to when the PTC part might arrive or even if they figured out how to order one.We then called the Hyundai Consumer Affairs contact we had and she said she was putting us into the Hyundai car buy back program—which we assumed meant that we would then be in the process to get a new car. The buy back program people called today and told my wife that they do not replace vehicles but on do a buyback. And to do this they will have to determine the current price of the vehicle based on mileage and ware and tear—and thus that we may not get back the full amount of the vehicle and what we paid to date. This person also said those determinations would be based upon the lemon law in the state we live (NY). They also said that they were informed that the PTC may be in this Friday, November 22 and perhaps we would want to wait as the buyback could take up to a month to process.

So this was not the news we expected. The car only has 2,500 miles on it so in our opinion it is essentially still a new car. Were a bit perplexed as to what to do, but it sounds like from this initial call from the buy back people that we either want to file through New York's lemon law, which does have a provision to wither get cash or a replacement vehicle. As to the replacement vehicle, the guide to the NYS lemon law states:

"The courts have ruled that the lemon law does not
entitle you to receive a brand new vehicle if you
elected to receive a "comparable replacement vehicle"
instead of a refund. Rather, you are entitled to receive
a car of the same year and model and which has
approximately the same mileage as the car being
replaced."

Seems like getting a car of the same year and mileage might be better than getting cash, assuming that we get the same model and make of the Kona EV. The lemon law is an arbitration hearing.

Anyone ever use the NYS lemon law for any kind of car?

 

[electriceddy]

Day 29 and still no car solution. No one at the dealer could give us information as to when the PTC part might arrive or even if they figured out how to order one.We then called the Hyundai Consumer Affairs contact we had and she said she was putting us into the Hyundai car buy back program—which we assumed meant that we would then be in the process to get a new car. The buy back program people called today and told my wife that they do not replace vehicles but on do a buyback. And to do this they will have to determine the current price of the vehicle based on mileage and ware and tear—and thus that we may not get back the full amount of the vehicle and what we paid to date. This person also said those determinations would be based upon the lemon law in the state we live (NY). They also said that they were informed that the PTC may be in this Friday, November 22 and perhaps we would want to wait as the buyback could take up to a month to process.

So this was not the news we expected. The car only has 2,500 miles on it so in our opinion it is essentially still a new car. Were a bit perplexed as to what to do, but it sounds like from this initial call from the buy back people that we either want to file through New York's lemon law, which does have a provision to wither get cash or a replacement vehicle. As to the replacement vehicle, the guide to the NYS lemon law states:

"The courts have ruled that the lemon law does not
entitle you to receive a brand new vehicle if you
elected to receive a "comparable replacement vehicle"
instead of a refund. Rather, you are entitled to receive
a car of the same year and model and which has
approximately the same mileage as the car being
replaced."

Seems like getting a car of the same year and mileage might be better than getting cash, assuming that we get the same model and make of the Kona EV. The lemon law is an arbitration hearing.

Anyone ever use the NYS lemon law for any kind of car?

Sounds like they changed the sensor from your Nov 5th post, so the PTC replacement will more than likely fix the problem. If this is the only problem so far and the PTC fixes it than that might be your best scenario. Again its too bad Hyundai (NA) won't stock replacement parts.

 

[ericy]

Sounds like they changed the sensor from your Nov 5th post, so the PTC replacement will more than likely fix the problem. If this is the only problem so far and the PTC fixes it than that might be your best scenario. Again its too bad Hyundai (NA) won't stock replacement parts.

There is this thing called Fedex that they could use to get parts from a central parts depot to anywhere in the world. So I don't get why it is that it takes multiple weeks to get replacement parts to the dealer, unless it is the case that they simply have no spares anywhere in the world, and they need to get them from an OEM. Or they are too cheap to pay for express shipping (possible, I guess for heavy parts).

There are certain parts that people have had trouble with - those are the sorts of things that one might think that Hyundai might be pro-active about adding stock for replacements.

Now I get that Hyundai might want to analyze failures of parts to see if there are manufacturing or design flaws that need to be corrected, but this sort of analysis probably cannot take place until they are able to get a hold of the failed parts.

 

[KiwiME]

I would expect the "AIR CONDITIONING PTC HEATER" as it's termed by Hyundai to look similar to this, with separate high voltage and control connections.

The Kona's schematic says it has 12V power, CAN and hardware interlock connections on the control connector. The separate HV connection to the battery is fused at 40 amps, although it would only use around 15 amps in use. It's certainly not a simple item.

 

[electriceddy]

I would expect the "AIR CONDITIONING PTC HEATER" as it's termed by Hyundai to look similar to this, with separate high voltage and control connections.
View attachment 6775
The Kona's schematic says it has 12V power, CAN and hardware interlock connections on the control connector. The separate HV connection to the battery is fused at 40 amps, although it would only use around 15 amps in use. It's certainly not a simple item.

Looks comparable to this 7 kW unit , with the same HV and LV connections
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/borgwarner-cabin-heater-extends-driving-range-for-new-ev/

 

[JFree]

So our Kona finally got fixed after 43 days. They put in a new PTC heater and put on about 140 miles testing it out (not pleased by how many miles they put on).

In the meantime we have been in negotiation with Hyundai USA over either them buying our car back or us keeping the car and taking an offer and keeping silent about it with some restrictions as to any further claims—this could get me in trouble if I say too much about that but since we haven't signed anything yet....

About the car. The heat is working and it seems plentiful to me over a few somewhat short drives. My wife put about 100 miles on it yesterday and she said the heat worked but at times it does start to blow cooler air. However if she turns the heat up, she gets heat back again—this didn't happen previously (having the heat come back). So can anyone tell me if this is normal--heat reaches temperature and then it may start to blow cooler air? I don't notice this as I wear pants and boots this time of year (NYS), but my wife is wearing a dress and dress shoes and said she notices cooler air on her legs and feet at some point of her ride. she's tried it on both auto and just manual heat. We mostly drive the car in ECO mode.

Anyway, just wanted to update everyone and to find out if the heat we are now getting sounds typical or still a bit off. We have until the end of the week to decide on either giving the car back or taking their offer.

 

[Wildeyed]

So our Kona finally got fixed after 43 days. They put in a new PTC heater and put on about 140 miles testing it out (not pleased by how many miles they put on).

In the meantime we have been in negotiation with Hyundai USA over either them buying our car back or us keeping the car and taking an offer and keeping silent about it with some restrictions as to any further claims—this could get me in trouble if I say too much about that but since we haven't signed anything yet....

About the car. The heat is working and it seems plentiful to me over a few somewhat short drives. My wife put about 100 miles on it yesterday and she said the heat worked but at times it does start to blow cooler air. However if she turns the heat up, she gets heat back again—this didn't happen previously (having the heat come back). So can anyone tell me if this is normal--heat reaches temperature and then it may start to blow cooler air? I don't notice this as I wear pants and boots this time of year (NYS), but my wife is wearing a dress and dress shoes and said she notices cooler air on her legs and feet at some point of her ride. she's tried it on both auto and just manual heat. We mostly drive the car in ECO mode.

Anyway, just wanted to update everyone and to find out if the heat we are now getting sounds typical or still a bit off. We have until the end of the week to decide on either giving the car back or taking their offer.

I set my heat relatively low (20°C) and, yes, when that set-point is reached and I leave the fan on, it feels like it's blowing cool air. I don't think it's actually cool. I suspect it's 20° but feels "cool" because the heater is no longer working to actively raise the temperature.

 

[Jamas]

So our Kona finally got fixed after 43 days. They put in a new PTC heater and put on about 140 miles testing it out (not pleased by how many miles they put on).

In the meantime we have been in negotiation with Hyundai USA over either them buying our car back or us keeping the car and taking an offer and keeping silent about it with some restrictions as to any further claims—this could get me in trouble if I say too much about that but since we haven't signed anything yet....

About the car. The heat is working and it seems plentiful to me over a few somewhat short drives. My wife put about 100 miles on it yesterday and she said the heat worked but at times it does start to blow cooler air. However if she turns the heat up, she gets heat back again—this didn't happen previously (having the heat come back). So can anyone tell me if this is normal--heat reaches temperature and then it may start to blow cooler air? I don't notice this as I wear pants and boots this time of year (NYS), but my wife is wearing a dress and dress shoes and said she notices cooler air on her legs and feet at some point of her ride. she's tried it on both auto and just manual heat. We mostly drive the car in ECO mode.

Anyway, just wanted to update everyone and to find out if the heat we are now getting sounds typical or still a bit off. We have until the end of the week to decide on either giving the car back or taking their offer.

Sounds like normal behavior now. My heater does the same thing.