I am dumbfounded by the Tesla Supercharger Team layoffs

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John Lumsden said:
Keith Smith said:
You have re-phrased my comment to be inflammatory. If you want to give reasons why you think CCS2 is superior to NACS please do.

I posted "Some day, rather like the move to USB type C charging for mobile phones and laptops, CCS type 2 may prevail for EVs, as it does already in many places internationally, even for Teslas."

From outside of North America we see the strong arguments being made for NACS vs CCS type1. In many other places Teslas use CCS type 2. The 3 phase argument puzzles me since I operate on single phase happily. It probably helps that domestic power is 230V. My point is not that one is better, (think Beta vs VHS), just that some day there may be a standard that prevails and it may be CCS 2, and we won't be agonising over it.
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J3400 is replacing CCS. CCS is a J1772 socket with 2 sockets for single phase AC and two larger DC pins bolted on the bottom. In europe they decided on IEC62196 a slightly larger socket than J1772 with 4 pins allowing for for a 3-phase AC connection. You don't have to use 3-phase it simply allowed for it. CCS2 took the IEC 62196 and bolted two larger DC pins on the bottom. In both cases this was simply to extend the existing connector to allow for DC charging. Tesla was forced to adopt CCS2 by the EU regulations, or they couldn't sell cars there.

As you say CCS2 or more accurately the IEC 62196 portion of CCS2 used for home/ac charging works fine with single-phase which is irrelevant. In my opinion J3400 is superior, 2-wires, smaller easier to handle plug with shared AC/DC pins. The only advantage I see for CCS2 over J3400 is the ability (not the requirement) to use 3-phase AC. J3400 does not support 3-phase, but my argument is that doesn't matter because it's simple enough to simply create a 3-phase AC-DC converter if you happen to have it, and this will get less expensive over time. Thus I stand by my post that EU mandates will perhaps leave Europe stuck with the drastically bulkier and harder to handle CCS2 connector for a longer time than necessary which I think will turn out to be stupid. OTOH if you see some other advantage besides the 3-phase capability of CCS2, that would make make a transition from a bulky connector to a more elegant one any different then I am happy to listen.
 
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Keith Smith said:
J3400 is replacing CCS. CCS is a J1772 socket with 2 sockets for single phase AC and two larger DC pins bolted on the bottom. In europe they decided on IEC62196 a slightly larger socket than J1772 with 4 pins allowing for for a 3-phase AC connection. You don't have to use 3-phase it simply allowed for it. CCS2 took the IEC 62196 and bolted two larger DC pins on the bottom. In both cases this was simply to extend the existing connector to allow for DC charging. Tesla was forced to adopt CCS2 by the EU regulations, or they couldn't sell cars there.

As you say CCS2 or more accurately the IEC 62196 portion of CCS2 used for home/ac charging works fine with single-phase which is irrelevant. In my opinion J3400 is superior, 2-wires, smaller easier to handle plug with shared AC/DC pins. The only advantage I see for CCS2 over J3400 is the ability (not the requirement) to use 3-phase AC. J3400 does not support 3-phase, but my argument is that doesn't matter because it's simple enough to simply create a 3-phase AC-DC converter if you happen to have it, and this will get less expensive over time. Thus I stand by my post that EU mandates will perhaps leave Europe stuck with the drastically bulkier and harder to handle CCS2 connector for a longer time than necessary which I think will turn out to be stupid. OTOH if you see some other advantage besides the 3-phase capability of CCS2, that would make make a transition from a bulky connector to a more elegant one any different then I am happy to listen.
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I don't have a dog in the North American fight about CCS type 1 vs NAS, nor am I campaigning for any particular standard. My own connection is very satisfactory and a lot lighter and cleaner than a petrol pump nozzle, and I can plug in to any public charging station. New vehicles use the same set-up so there is consistency with the infrastructure. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned CCS2 when suggesting that, when all the current dumbfounding concerns about Tesla charger support are history, we may get to a place like with phones and computers where we have a universal connection standard.
 
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The irony is J3400 supports both AC and DC charging. The J1772 standard identifies DC charging, 80 A when I last looked, but vehicles use just the AC charging mode.

Bob Wilson
 
Elon just posted this on X:

"Just to reiterate: Tesla will spend well over $500M expanding our Supercharger network to create thousands of NEW chargers this year. That’s just on new sites and expansions, not counting operations costs, which are much higher."

Not sure how you do this effectively after you just laid of the entire team doing that, but it's at least a little reassuring. I wonder how much they spent last year on it?
 
Mark W said:
Elon just posted this on X:

"Just to reiterate: Tesla will spend well over $500M expanding our Supercharger network to create thousands of NEW chargers this year. That’s just on new sites and expansions, not counting operations costs, which are much higher."

Not sure how you do this effectively after you just laid of the entire team doing that, but it's at least a little reassuring. I wonder how much they spent last year on it?
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I guess you have to ask how much of that money has already been spent during the last four months, how many of the thousand superchargers have been finished, and how many more superchargers are left to be finished this year.

Note a lot of these superchargers are being placed in China. Do we know if there are separate supercharger teams in China and Europe that weren't part of the this layoff.

https://supercharge.info/changes
 
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Well, stock investors seem to like what he is doing... Musk has never just done what others do or is expected. That is one of the reasons for his great success with Tesla, and the space program. And remember big lay-offs are happening across the tech sector, incl with no notice. But for those who hate Musk, this certainly gives them more ammo.

He does face major challenges with the downdraft in the EV transition along with stiff competition incl low cost EVs from China. So cost cutting is vital to survival for a BEV only company. And he needs to fast track that low cost EV.
 
R P said:
Well, stock investors seem to like what he is doing... Musk has never just done what others do or is expected. That is one of the reasons for his great success with Tesla, and the space program. And remember big lay-offs are happening across the tech sector, incl with no notice. But for those who hate Musk, this certainly gives them more ammo.

He does face major challenges with the downdraft in the EV transition along with stiff competition incl low cost EVs from China. So cost cutting is vital to survival for a BEV only company. And he needs to fast track that low cost EV.
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Well the stock hasn't cratered, but it's not on fire either. Isn't it still down YTD, something like 28%?
 
marshall said:
Well the stock hasn't cratered, but it's not on fire either. Isn't it still down YTD, something like 28%?
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Yes, that was due to the bad sales in the qtr, but it has been on the recovery since the news of the cost cutting and maybe fast tracking a cheaper EV. He is doing/saying the right things at this moment. Big challenges ahead, though, and will be more bad sales and financial news in coming qtrs. Like I said in a past post on the Tesla Stock thread, I would not be surprised to see it down to $100 by year end. These down and ups makes for a good trading stock, though.
 
Tesla started the 4680 cell effort before the LiFePO chemistry and production took off. That my be the next group to go.

Bob Wilson
 
R P said:
Yes, that was due to the bad sales in the qtr, but it has been on the recovery since the news of the cost cutting and maybe fast tracking a cheaper EV. He is doing/saying the right things at this moment. Big challenges ahead, though, and will be more bad sales and financial news in coming qtrs. Like I said in a past post on the Tesla Stock thread, I would not be surprised to see it down to $100 by year end. These down and ups makes for a good trading stock, though.
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The latest upward blip was probably due to news of Biden's protectionist tariffs on Chinese EVs, which may save Tesla and all domestics from one significant threat (though the Chinese may be able to get around this in part by building cars in Mexico, so the story will have more chapters). Today, with an hour and a half left to go in the trading day, Tesla is down about 1.5%. I think the one thing we can all safely predict is that the stock will have more ups and downs, sometimes big ones, though I remain convinced that the long term trajectory will be downward.
 
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The automotive industry has always been extremely volatile. It was actually responsible for a lot of legislation around unemployment insurance because of mass layoffs from way back in the 50's and 60's. I find it amusing how fickle peoples attitudes can be over stuff like this. I think we are at the point where Tesla is not going anywhere, they are one of the few companies that actually have a full EV oriented production infrastructure, and the ability to produce batteries at scale. I would be the last person to second guess his motivations nor predict his success or failure. As much as everyone keeps predicting the demise of EV's, I think the straight up growth has to slow, but that does not mean it's going to fall and crash. Fun to watch.
 
bwilson4web said:
Some scale but Tesla still buys a boat load.

Bob Wilson
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Indeed, the last thing I saw had the gigfactory in NV at about 1/3 of it's planned size. I think there is some nervous expansion while we wait for some of the new battery tech to materialize. Wild prediction: I think 2026 is going to be very interesting. I expect to see Al-Ion start to ramp up and start to gobble up a chunk of the EV production input. Many of the other higher density technologies seem to be vaporware, while the lower density stuff, will end up as bulk storage if they get costs down.

Re-tooling is expensive and I think we will see a dramatic drop in the cost of battery storage, nobody wants to invest in excess production at this point. I think Tesla is sitting pretty good on this front with the ability to triple the size of it's facility. They are working on some other locations as well, I think they are mostly concentrating on getting core infrastructure in place to make themselves more nimble as the tech evolves, with current production providing a significant chunk of their needs. It's a lot easier to expand a facility than build one from scratch. It will be fun to watch, and I think the folks that are really looking at dropping the cash are thinking what I am thinking. If Aluminum can deliver on just 1/2 of it's promises it's going to really change the game, similar and more radical than the shift from Nimh to Lion.
 
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