How Much Range is Enough Range?

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Smitty79

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I just listened to this week's podcast. Lots of different numbers; anywhere from 225 to 400. The panel rightly said that it's dependent on availability of chargers and charging rates.

I have done a 5000 mile road trip in 12 days and I regularly drive from near Portland Oregon to near San Francisco. So I have some experience using the range in my Model 3.

I think the key issue is time. My definition of a road tripable EV is that the car/charging infrastructure combination need to be able to complete a drive in no more than 5% more time than it would take for an ICE car.

I'm 65, so I'm going to stop twice in a 10 hour drive with an ICE car. Stopping 4 times and taking 10.5 hours to complete the same drive is fine. Someone younger, with a stronger bladder, might to my ICE 10 hour drive in 9.5. Finish that drive in a little under 10 hours, in an EV would also be fine.

If you almost never go on road trips, you might have different ideas of good. My own personal long term plan is to have a good road tripping car and second car that can do around town driving (200 mi range is fine) and hauling. For Teslas, a Model Y long range and a minimum Cybertruck would be great. But an EV6 and a Ford Lightning would work too.
 
For tripping, I think 400 - 500 km range is plenty. What is more important is fast charging. Just sold our Kona EV which had about 500 km range (in the summer), but L3 charging was not the fastest. We have 2 new EVs on order. The Ioniq 5 which has good range (although not the highest), and has very fast charging, will be our trip car. And we have a Solterra on order which has lower range and not the fastest charging (although faster than our Kona). The main reason we are getting it is its off-road capability for going to our cabin and other off-road adventures. So all our needs should be covered going forward.
 
When I was shopping for an EV, my range criterion would be that it could get me from San Francisco to my brother's house in the Sierra Foothills, about 180 miles, let me plug into a regular wall socket overnight and get me back home the next day without having to stop to charge. The Hyundai Kona I got could do that (though there were plenty of places I could stop and charge on the way home if I really had to). Now that I'm on the Big Island of Hawaii, where the longest conceivable road trip is barely 200 miles, I don't think about it at all, which is kind of nice.
 
With our 2019 Model 3:
  • 230 mi at 100% - used only as first segment of cross country trips.
    • 200-210 mi - practical first segment length with 20 mi reserve driving close to 4 hours
    • 100-170 mi - most cross country segments depending on SuperCharger network map driving for 2-3 hours
  • 154 mi at 67% - temperate, +55 F, start of day charge
    • 180 mi at 80% - cold weather, below 50 F, start of day charge
IMHO, ~250 miles works. Large enough for cross country in the SuperCharger network. Short enough to reduce battery weight and cost. So my Tesla Model 3 has a +55 kWh pack with an empty weight of 3,800 lbs.

Bob Wilson
 
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From my location, central Colo, going W or SW long distance isn't really viable due to lack of charging infrastructure. Possible could make it work if I stayed on the interstate, but that's not the shortest or quickest route to AZ. I'll have another vehicle (probably always a camper van) for long trips. The EV will be for in-state trips & 225 mi will be enough. Most of the trips will be less than 60 mi roundtrip. To the city and back will be about 300, so I'd have to stop to charge with pretty much anything out there now.
 
200ish miles is adequate IMO. Ideally a little higher so that you still have 200 miles after battery degradation occurs. So I guess like... 225 miles or so.
 
My daily, default range is enough to reach the nearest fast DC chargers in case I need to bug-out. I shop where there are free chargers around town. Fortunately the SuperCharger growth has filled in some gaps to Mom, my brothers, and my SO’s needs. She also has a coded BMW i3-REx that can go places where the Tesla needs more planning.

Bob Wilson
 
teslarati97 said:
I'm starting to get increasingly frustrated with being PHEV'd at Tesla destination chargers. That's like free petrol/diesel at the hotel for bringing your 5.7L V8 truck.
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Owning a true PHEV, 2014 BMW i3-REx and true BEV Tesla, I have been on both sides. So using PlugShare and a dual voltage, portable EVSE, I concentrate on effective workarounds. Both cars have dual voltage, L2 rate 32 A, portable EVSEs.

We need to share common resources with magnanimity. Yet clever enough to come up with workarounds.

Bob Wilson
 
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I wouldn't classify the i3-REX as a true PHEV but a BEV + petrol EVSE (more BEV than PHEV drivetrain). The efficiency is certainly there (~3.5mi/kWh) in the i3-REX, but not in the electron guzzling Rav4 PRIME with <1.75mi/kWh 70mph electric only. A Tesla Model 3 can easily attain a 4.25mi/kWh in 70mph highway driving!
 
teslarati97 said:
I'm starting to get increasingly frustrated with being PHEV'd at Tesla destination chargers. That's like free petrol/diesel at the hotel for bringing your 5.7L V8 truck.
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Well the answer to that is to charge enough for the electricity to make it unattractive.

In the meanwhile, their money is as good as yours if the electricity comes with the price of lodging.
 
Tesla destination charging is generally free and most PHEV and BEVs can adapt their J1772 to use the Tesla plug. I'm all for EVs in general but getting ICE'd or PHEV'd overnight can really make things difficult.

I think the next thing will be getting EA'd or Electrified America'd by all those cars with 2 years of free DC fast charging.
 
Once you actually start using an EV you quickly find out that range is not the big issue you thought it would be. In my situation just charging from home meets most of my needs and that's with a 40kwh Leaf. I have only occasional (business) longer trips that require a DCFC or two along the way. I sometimes take my old ICE car on longer runs just to use up the gas before it goes bad and to get the rust off the brakes.

If I did a lot of longer distance driving the Leaf would probably be a little too cumbersome but as "Clamps" said in his post it depends on the available charging infrastructure.
 
Clamps said:
Enough range is relative to charging infrastructure.
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True, my 200 mile statement assumes ubiquitous charging infrastructure. Which is close enough to true in my area.

teslarati97 said:
I'm starting to get increasingly frustrated with being PHEV'd at Tesla destination chargers. That's like free petrol/diesel at the hotel for bringing your 5.7L V8 truck.
Click to expand...
The real problem is insufficient destination chargers. IMO.
 
I did not know about this but it makes sense:
TeslaJ1772USA1_1322x1322.png

teslarati97 said:
Tesla destination charging is generally free and most PHEV and BEVs can [buy an interface to RJW] adapt their J1772 to use the Tesla plug.
Click to expand...
Source: https://ev-lectron.com/products/lec...PCFtQFKluTEDOflZksozD9vxJ0TTXViRoCjS4QAvD_BwE

A Tesla owner, it makes sense as our Teslas already come with a J1772-to-Tesla adapter. Having another L2 option for non-Tesla owners makes sense because it improves the utility of destinations chargers to property owners. Regardless, I've found destination chargers often have a second, EVSE J1772 plug.

Bob Wilson
 
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Smitty79 said:
I just listened to this week's podcast. Lots of different numbers; anywhere from 225 to 400. The panel rightly said that it's dependent on availability of chargers and charging rates.

I have done a 5000 mile road trip in 12 days and I regularly drive from near Portland Oregon to near San Francisco. So I have some experience using the range in my Model 3.

I think the key issue is time. My definition of a road tripable EV is that the car/charging infrastructure combination need to be able to complete a drive in no more than 5% more time than it would take for an ICE car.

I'm 65, so I'm going to stop twice in a 10 hour drive with an ICE car. Stopping 4 times and taking 10.5 hours to complete the same drive is fine. Someone younger, with a stronger bladder, might to my ICE 10 hour drive in 9.5. Finish that drive in a little under 10 hours, in an EV would also be fine.

If you almost never go on road trips, you might have different ideas of good. My own personal long term plan is to have a good road tripping car and second car that can do around town driving (200 mi range is fine) and hauling. For Teslas, a Model Y long range and a minimum Cybertruck would be great. But an EV6 and a Ford Lightning would work too.
Click to expand...
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I have to laugh at the idea of stopping only twice on a 10-hour trip, but I'm 76. Guys, if you're lucky enough to live this long, things do change a bit.

With two Tesla's that have never been charged except from my roof, I can't comment on long waits, etc. But, for practical purposes, my wife's Model 3, with an effective range of around 200 miles and the new Model Y, with over 300 (they discontinued the standard range, so I had to buy the dual-motor version), are way more car than I ever expect to need.

The longest road trip I anticipate at this point would be from the Bay Area to Orange County, which would require one charging stop regardless. Anything longer than that at this age, I'll fly, limited not by the car's long-range capability but by my own.

YMMV, obviously.
 
Well I was going to watch the podcast, but the 1hr36m run time is not an option for me. But from the previous comments, apparently it was mainly about long range EVs coming to the market and their "necessity". I just have to point out, as Paul K. and others wrote, such long ranges are irrelevant for the majority of driving tasks. Our 2022 Mini SE, which we intended as our second car when we bought it, became our primary car within a month. We live in Chandler, AZ. If you are not familiar with the "Valley of the Sun" driving distances are long to traverse the valley and air conditioning is needed most of the year. Even given those conditions, the range of the SE has been more than enough and we've never needed more than a 90 mile range. (Our SE has a minimum range of 110 miles.) We have a hybrid Camry for the rare times when we actually need to drive long distances. I just feel like I need to point out a more practical vehicle solution for most drivers right now.
 
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