Honda Clarity, the Volt Challenger

[insightman]

That’s a very simplistic way of looking at it and does not account for all factors in the US.

So you're saying the Volt would have failed even if gas cost $5/gallon? As simplistic as I may seem, I believe the price of gas that people buy every day overshadows all the valid economic factors you cited. Pumping $170 dollars worth of gas into your Ford Expedition every 500 miles might make you wonder if you really need a Ford Expedition.

 

[Claritydfw]

So you're saying the Volt would have failed even if gas cost $5/gallon? As simplistic as I may seem, I believe the price of gas that people buy every day overshadows all the valid economic factors you cited. Pumping $170 dollars worth of gas into your Ford Expedition every 500 miles might make you wonder if you really need a Ford Expedition.

No I am not saying that at all. I am just saying there are multiple factors. Gas is not the only one. Is gas price a big reason for some? Yes. But it’s not the only reason and would be disingenuous to say it was. You obviously Value the price of gas more than other things. But you are a total sum of 1 and only expert for your own needs. The same as I. But because I know that I can’t evaluate the needs for all people and know that my needs are not the same for everyone else I am forced to look at all possible reasons for a outcome. (By the way I work in a science field so I am predisposed to look at all possible reasons for a outcome and not base it on feelings or opinions).

Now using your example of $5 per gallon is being dramatic as we have not dealt with that price level. If we did have $5 gallon gas in the near future we would be plunged into a depression and just a recession. We would most likely have some unrest. Look at France at the moment. You can’t just necessarily skyrocket the cost of energy and not expect things to get out of whack. The laws of economics do not allow for fast dramatic changes in goods. If you do have fast and dramatic changes you will have a major upset in the balance of things and the average person would most likely not have the ability to afford a new VOLT.

The Volt is being killed off for several reasons. Some of them are like I said i.e the lack of future subsidies. It was always just a bridge vehicle to get a path to BEVs. It does not meet the needs for all (it’s only a small 4 person car). And gas is cheaper so the need for the average buyer is not there at the moment for some.

In the future when the price of gas goes up people will start to favor low consumption vehicles again just like they always have. In the 70s I remember the import new car lots were sold out when OPEC tried to screw us. Around 2008 I remember people paying over sticker for a Prius. I also remember in the 90s with low gas prices people getting trucks and SUVs like crazy.

 

[insightman]

No I am not saying that at all. I am just saying there are multiple factors. Gas is not the only one. Is gas price a big reason for some? Yes. But it’s not the only reason and would be disingenuous to say it was. You obviously Value the price of gas more than other things. But you are a total sum of 1 and only expert for your own needs. The same as I. But because I know that I can’t evaluate the needs for all people and know that my needs are not the same for everyone else I am forced to look at all possible reasons for a outcome. (By the way I work in a science field so I am predisposed to look at all possible reasons for a outcome and not base it on feelings or opinions).

Now using your example of $5 per gallon is being dramatic as we have not dealt with that price level. If we did have $5 gallon gas in the near future we would be plunged into a depression and just a recession. We would most likely have some unrest. Look at France at the moment. You can’t just necessarily skyrocket the cost of energy and not expect things to get out of whack. The laws of economics do not allow for fast dramatic changes in goods. If you do have fast and dramatic changes you will have a major upset in the balance of things and the average person would most likely not have the ability to afford a new VOLT.

The Volt is being killed off for several reasons. Some of them are like I said i.e the lack of future subsidies. It was always just a bridge vehicle to get a path to BEVs. It does not meet the needs for all (it’s only a small 4 person car). And gas is cheaper so the need for the average buyer is not there at the moment for some.

In the future when the price of gas goes up people will start to favor low consumption vehicles again just like they always have. In the 70s I remember the import new car lots were sold out when OPEC tried to screw us. Around 2008 I remember people paying over sticker for a Prius. I also remember in the 90s with low gas prices people getting trucks and SUVs like crazy.

I agree with everything you say about the economy, the subsidies, and that the Volt isn't the perfect size for everyone (which is why we have a Clarity).

Being a geezer, I went through the 1973 gas crisis when the price of oil quadrupled from $3 to $12/bbl. The effect on the economy was ugly. The 55-mph speed limit "solution" in 1974 was even uglier. I've always chosen small, fuel-efficient cars and believed the crisis would bring sanity to the automobile market. Nope. The Americans' desire for bigger and bigger cars won out and many are driving 15-mpg trucks and SUVs--they're just larger than the 15-mpg cars Detroit was selling in 1973.

Had lawmakers had backbone and foresight (requiring constituents with backbone and foresight), actions taken to properly solve the 1973 gas crisis could have prevented the 1979 gas crisis. Those actions would have mandated an orderly transition to fuel-efficient cars that would strengthen the US economy rather than making it always vulnerable to the next gas crisis.

In my impossibly idealistic scenario, the Volt would have been heralded as a major breakthrough in automotive history. Oh wait, it was heralded as a major breakthrough in automotive history. The problem was that the Volt was the answer to a question everyone was ignoring. Had the Volt been successful, there would now be Clarity-sized GM plug-in hybrids and a wide selection of US-built plug-in hybrid trucks and SUVs. (How brave is Honda for bringing out a Pilot PHEV in a country that buys 700-hp Jeeps?)

Gas prices in Canada are nearly $5/gallon as the cheap-oil bubble persists. It's too bad Honda made it so difficult to purchase a Clarity PHEV in Canada before Ontario voters decided to elect a Premier who promised to eliminate EV incentives in order to delay increased beer taxes.

None of what I'm saying, @Claritydfw, is meant to contradict your many good points. However, I believe the country would be stronger if gas was realistically more expensive. If the government had managed things properly after the gas crises of the 70's, $5/gallon gas would not be an economy killer today. And the Volt would be a very popular car.

 

[Electra]

Now using your example of $5 per gallon is being dramatic as we have not dealt with that price level. If we did have $5 gallon gas in the near future we would be plunged into a depression and just a recession. We would most likely have some unrest. Look at France at the moment. You can’t just necessarily skyrocket the cost of energy and not expect things to get out of whack. The laws of economics do not allow for fast dramatic changes in goods. If you do have fast and dramatic changes you will have a major upset in the balance of things and the average person would most likely not have the ability to afford a new VOLT.

You haven't been to CA, HI, or NY when they had $5/gal gas then. Lucky to be living in TX where oil and coal is cheap.
http://www.fox5ny.com/news/gas-hits-5-a-gallon-in-new-york-city
https://www.khon2.com/news/local-ne...han-5-per-gallon_20180306071903136/1012658310
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/1616773

 

[Claritydfw]

You haven't been to CA, HI, or NY when they had $5/gal gas then. Lucky to be living in TX where oil and coal is cheap.
http://www.fox5ny.com/news/gas-hits-5-a-gallon-in-new-york-city
https://www.khon2.com/news/local-ne...han-5-per-gallon_20180306071903136/1012658310
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/1616773

I am talking about national averages. The examples you have given are mostley self imposed prices. HI has high prices because it’s a island and everything there has to be shipped in and that’s the price of living in a remote area. CA and NY have artificially made their prices higher based on taxes and strange blends. Part of that issue could be fixed if each area didn’t have boutique blends of fuel and moved to more of a regional blend.

If you like I can show you a picture showing $6 and $8 gas. But again that’s not the national average and was a self imposed price base on location and a direct link to supply and demand at that location.

 

[Claritydfw]

I agree with everything you say about the economy, the subsidies, and that the Volt isn't the perfect size for everyone (which is why we have a Clarity).

Being a geezer, I went through the 1973 gas crisis when the price of oil quadrupled from $3 to $12/bbl. The effect on the economy was ugly. The 55-mph speed limit "solution" in 1974 was even uglier. I've always chosen small, fuel-efficient cars and believed the crisis would bring sanity to the automobile market. Nope. The Americans' desire for bigger and bigger cars won out and many are driving 15-mpg trucks and SUVs--they're just larger than the 15-mpg cars Detroit was selling in 1973.

Had lawmakers had backbone and foresight (requiring constituents with backbone and foresight), actions taken to properly solve the 1973 gas crisis could have prevented the 1979 gas crisis. Those actions would have mandated an orderly transition to fuel-efficient cars that would strengthen the US economy rather than making it always vulnerable to the next gas crisis.

In my impossibly idealistic scenario, the Volt would have been heralded as a major breakthrough in automotive history. Oh wait, it was heralded as a major breakthrough in automotive history. The problem was that the Volt was the answer to a question everyone was ignoring. Had the Volt been successful, there would now be Clarity-sized GM plug-in hybrids and a wide selection of US-built plug-in hybrid trucks and SUVs. (How brave is Honda for bringing out a Pilot PHEV in a country that buys 700-hp Jeeps?)

Gas prices in Canada are nearly $5/gallon as the cheap-oil bubble persists. It's too bad Honda made it so difficult to purchase a Clarity PHEV in Canada before Ontario voters decided to elect a Premier who promised to eliminate EV incentives in order to delay increased beer taxes.

None of what I'm saying, @Claritydfw, is meant to contradict your many good points. However, I believe the country would be stronger if gas was realistically more expensive. If the government had managed things properly after the gas crises of the 70's, $5/gallon gas would not be an economy killer today. And the Volt would be a very popular car.

I think you have some good poitns but you have one major flaw. Your idea of thinking that the government can fix it. The government can’t be trusted to purchase a toilet seat. They are not good at doing anything but causing issues with unintended results. The 55 mph fix as you mentioned was not a fix and masked the real issue. The real issue was fuel efficiency and if auto makers only had to rate cars at 55 instead of real speeds the efficiency of the cars being made at that point went up without any real changes. If the speed limit had not been changed the auto makes would have had to make real changes.

I personally don’t believe the US would have been stronger in the past if gas prices were artificially higher. A major part of our issue in the past was the raw product (Oil) in the supply line. The US for a long time has been one of the largest refiners of oil to gas. The issue in the past had been are access to the oil. We were limited by several factors but a few of the major ones were technology in how to get it and laws deciding if you can get it. Technology has caught up and some of the laws have changed on acces. But if you have noticed OPEC (and Russia) no longer has the control it had on the world market. Anytime they try to make the prices higher the free economy can make up for it now and cause the prices to go down.

My response was not to be a government / political bashing reply but just to point out that in a free market society like the US you can’t make laws / regulations without haveing unintended results.

 

[LAF]

No I am not saying that at all. I am just saying there are multiple factors. Gas is not the only one. Is gas price a big reason for some? Yes. But it’s not the only reason and would be disingenuous to say it was. You obviously Value the price of gas more than other things. But you are a total sum of 1 and only expert for your own needs. The same as I. But because I know that I can’t evaluate the needs for all people and know that my needs are not the same for everyone else I am forced to look at all possible reasons for a outcome. (By the way I work in a science field so I am predisposed to look at all possible reasons for a outcome and not base it on feelings or opinions).

Now using your example of $5 per gallon is being dramatic as we have not dealt with that price level. If we did have $5 gallon gas in the near future we would be plunged into a depression and just a recession. We would most likely have some unrest. Look at France at the moment. You can’t just necessarily skyrocket the cost of energy and not expect things to get out of whack. The laws of economics do not allow for fast dramatic changes in goods. If you do have fast and dramatic changes you will have a major upset in the balance of things and the average person would most likely not have the ability to afford a new VOLT.

The Volt is being killed off for several reasons. Some of them are like I said i.e the lack of future subsidies. It was always just a bridge vehicle to get a path to BEVs. It does not meet the needs for all (it’s only a small 4 person car). And gas is cheaper so the need for the average buyer is not there at the moment for some.

In the future when the price of gas goes up people will start to favor low consumption vehicles again just like they always have. In the 70s I remember the import new car lots were sold out when OPEC tried to screw us. Around 2008 I remember people paying over sticker for a Prius. I also remember in the 90s with low gas prices people getting trucks and SUVs like crazy.

"Now using your example of $5 per gallon is being dramatic as we have not dealt with that price level. If we did have $5 gallon gas in the near future we would be plunged into a depression and just a recession"
European countries have had $5 per gallon gas for dozens of years and have adjusted. That is an important answer to climate change challenge. Our earth is at stake.

 

[Claritydfw]

"Now using your example of $5 per gallon is being dramatic as we have not dealt with that price level. If we did have $5 gallon gas in the near future we would be plunged into a depression and just a recession"
European countries have had $5 per gallon gas for dozens of years and have adjusted. That is an important answer to climate change challenge. Our earth is at stake.

Yes they have had expensive gas for a long time. They also made a move to diesel to counter the high price of gas and that caused other issues with pollution. They have also had other financial issues for a long time too. Again look at France over the past few days and the riots they have had because of the price of gas.

Europe has historically had a different financial system and opinions on individual liberties than the US. Also the individual country’s are a different size and population density so you can’t just say Europe has it so should we. It just does not work that way and anyone that does is being myopic on their point of view.

My point to the original post is you can’t look at just one thing and assume that is the only reason (i.e. the price of gas). There are multiple factors that can cause a product to succeed or fail. The Volt was never going to be a successful vehicle without a subsidy. It was mostley a proof of concept and a bridge vehicle to allow a auto maker a way to explore other options. Now if you look around you are starting to see more and more BEVs being produced and scheduled for a future release. These BEVs would not be possible the way they were just a few years back because of the lack of technology. Back in the early 2000s a BEV was nothing more than a golf cart with doors. The move away from Gas will happen in time just like the move away from a horse and buggy happened but trying to force it in a unnatural way to fast can cause more harm than good.

 

[LAF]

The move away from Gas will happen in time just like the move away from a horse and buggy happened but trying to force it in a unnatural way to fast can cause more harm than good."

"Would you have bought the Clarity without the subsidy, I wouldn't have? Would Honda invested in the technology if they knew none of us would buy the Clarity at cost (35K)? The govt has supported many technology advances in a variety of ways (GPS, basic medical research) that have dramatically spurred on their contribution to the economy. These are "unnatural" but worthy in my mind. Capitalism is a great system but insight into its side effects (i.e. global warming, lung cancer from addictive cigarettes) is not going to come from the private sector alone.

 

[Claritydfw]

The move away from Gas will happen in time just like the move away from a horse and buggy happened but trying to force it in a unnatural way to fast can cause more harm than good."

"Would you have bought the Clarity without the subsidy, I wouldn't have? Would Honda invested in the technology if they knew none of us would buy the Clarity at cost (35K)? The govt has supported many technology advances in a variety of ways (GPS, basic medical research) that have dramatically spurred on their contribution to the economy. These are "unnatural" but worthy in my mind. Capitalism is a great system but insight into its side effects (i.e. global warming, lung cancer from addictive cigarettes) is not going to come from the private sector alone.

No I would not have purchased the car without the 10k in subsidies. I could drive a Camary for for over 100,000 miles with that amount of cash. It’s the same reason I didn’t purchase a Prius in 2008. The extra cost would never pay for the gas savings. Honestly when the price of gas is high I get a truck. When it’s low I get a car. The reason for this is that I don’t drive to many miles and I am looking at the cost of the vehicle and taking advantage of market forces that make a car cheap during low fuel prices and trucks cheap during high fuel cost periods.

As to your GPS comment you do know it was made for the military to help develop pin point destruction and get away from carpet bombing. That war “cheaper” and “faster”. This way it’s cheaper to destroy a target because of less munitions needed. It also causes less unneeded casualty . It sucks to know that but it’s true. My point to that is to show you it was not designed for you to use Waze. It just happens to be a side effect. Most government designed inventions come to us as a side effect for other needs. So no GPS is not a “unnaturall” way of things being done. It had a specific goal and now I get home faster because I can use waze only as a side effect.

Forcing a high gas price only to make people drive less is a unnatural way of doing things as it’s not targeting a specific goal like the GPS example above. People are still going to drive and just spend more on gas and less on other goods. That would cause other unnatural outcomes in the economy. Allowing manufacturers to explore different design ideas will help more than forcing a high gas price. Manufactures are forced by law to design around specific rules. This can help slow down imporvoments. A good example was the old 55 speed limit. Manufactures have to publish their effecency based on very specific settings. The 55 limit automatically made their mpg go higher. The cars were not any better but the test used to determine the mpg was modified to make the numbers look better. If the old speed limits were sill used at that time the manufactures would have had to make real changes to increase the mpg. Unfortunately we lost several years of progress because of this.

 

[insightman]

Honesty when the price of gas is high I get a truck. When it’s low I get a car.

Everyone should get to choose what they like and can afford.

 

[LAF]

No I would not have purchased the car without the 10k in subsidies. I could drive a Camary for for over 100,000 miles with that amount of cash. It’s the same reason I didn’t purchase a Prius in 2008. The extra cost would never pay for the gas savings. Honestly when the price of gas is high I get a truck. When it’s low I get a car. The reason for this is that I don’t drive to many miles and I am looking at the cost of the vehicle and taking advantage of market forces that make a car cheap during low fuel prices and trucks cheap during high fuel cost periods.

As to your GPS comment you do know it was made for the military to help develop pin point destruction and get away from carpet bombing. That war “cheaper” and “faster”. This way it’s cheaper to destroy a target because of less munitions needed. It also causes less unneeded casualty . It sucks to know that but it’s true. My point to that is to show you it was not designed for you to use Waze. It just happens to be a side effect. Most government designed inventions come to us as a side effect for other needs. So no GPS is not a “unnaturall” way of things being done. It had a specific goal and now I get home faster because I can use waze only as a side effect.

Forcing a high gas price only to make people drive less is a unnatural way of doing things as it’s not targeting a specific goal like the GPS example above. People are still going to drive and just spend more on gas and less on other goods. That would cause other unnatural outcomes in the economy. Allowing manufacturers to explore different design ideas will help more than forcing a high gas price. Manufactures are forced by law to design around specific rules. This can help slow down imporvoments. A good example was the old 55 speed limit. Manufactures have to publish their effecency based on very specific settings. The 55 limit automatically made their mpg go higher. The cars were not any better but the test used to determine the mpg was modified to make the numbers look better. If the old speed limits were sill used at that time the manufactures would have had to make real changes to increase the mpg. Unfortunately we lost several years of progress because of this.

Forcing car companies to meet milage standards no doubt accelerated the development of EV cars. And its "side effect" was likely to have reduced trillions of carbon molecules from entering the atmosphere.

 

[Claritydfw]

Forcing car companies to meet milage standards no doubt accelerated the development of EV cars. And its "side effect" was likely to have reduced trillions of carbon molecules from entering the atmosphere.

Maybe it did help maybe it did not help. I don’t know all the real data and you don’t know all the real data. But the data I do know is that the MPG standards setup have ways around it and manufactures just like any company use the rules to help them. Add a third row to the vehicle and now you have a truck that has different rules. Make the vehicle heavier and Now your in med duty truck exempt from certain rules. Have a longer bed in the tuck and now your in a different truck level again. What do all those examples have? The vehicle now weigh more and uses more fuel and put out more pollution. Again unattended results from trying to do a good thing. You may say then we should outlaw trucks or tax the heck out of them. Then my response would be well have fun paying more for your goods as trucks are what people use to get items to your market and the unattended results would be the people providing your products now have to pay more to get them to you.

So I go back and say not just one thing killed the volt (i.e. low cost gas). Multiple things have killed the volt and low cost gas at the moment is most one of the factors but not the only factor.

 

[LAF]

Forcing car companies to meet milage standards no doubt accelerated the development of EV cars. And its "side effect" was likely to have reduced trillions of carbon molecules from entering the atmosphere.

agreed!

 

[PHEV Newbie]

Sad that the Volt is gone. To me, it's not a Clarity competitor but a different class of PHEV (sporty, compact to the Clarity's big, luxurious) with practical EV range. We need more excellent PHEVs, not fewer.

 

[Claritydfw]

Sad that the Volt is gone. To me, it's not a Clarity competitor but a different type of vehicle (sporty, compact) with practical EV range. We need more excellent PHEVs, not fewer.

I looked at one but it was way to small for me. I just wish some of the tech in it was in my Honda. Hopefully they are going to be parts of it in other vehicles. My guess would be that they will have a Volt version of a CUV in the near future.

 

[Claritydfw]

agreed!

???

 

[Electra]

agreed!

Did you realize that you quoted yourself? Lol

 

[jdonalds]

Forcing car companies to meet milage standards no doubt accelerated the development of EV cars. And its "side effect" was likely to have reduced trillions of carbon molecules from entering the atmosphere.

I would not have purchased the Clarity if it weren't for the tax credits and rebate. My comfort zone is more in the $20-25K region. I received $11,500 off the cost of the car which brought it close to my zone.

I'd have to give some credit to Elon Musk. I don't know if Tesla would have made it without the tax brakes and rebates bit it does seem he was hell bent on making electric cars.

 

[insightman]

I would not have purchased the Clarity if it weren't for the tax credits and rebate. My comfort zone is more in the $20-25K region. I received $11,500 off the cost of the car which brought it close to my zone.

I'd have to give some credit to Elon Musk. I don't know if Tesla would have made it without the tax brakes and rebates bit it does seem he was hell bent on making electric cars.

Call me crazy, but after waiting for a year after the Clarity PHEV was announced, I was prepared to pay more than $40K based on what I knew about the Clarity Fuel Cell. So I was very happy when the one I wanted had an MSRP under $38K before the fed EV tax credit.

The Clarity PHEV is perfect for my wife and great when we have rear-seat passengers. I have a blast when she lets me drive it. After 51 weeks in our Clarity PHEV, my 2006 Insight hasn't been as much fun to drive as it used to be because I have to take it to a gas station EVERY MONTH!

I was hoping Honda would drop an i-MMD powertrain into a lightened CR-Z and call it the new Insight, but that didn't happen. I would have happily paid more than $30K for that 80-mpg hybrid. I'm holding off on the Indiana Insight until it's absolutely certain Honda's never going to let me buy an Urban EV. Call me crazier, but I'd pay $40K for one of those.