High CA gas prices
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Mowcowbell
Well-Known Member
Not so much savings here in the midwest. Gas hovering around $2/gal. At least electricity rates are reasonable at .11 cents per kWh. Gas would have to be less than $1.69/gal to make it cheaper to run the Clarity. I bought it for the quiet ride, no ICE to warm up for short trips, no dealing with crowded gas stations, ability to choose which method of fuel I want.
Funny title for the statement.
Nothing is free. Even in the land of $4 gas and $.20/kWh electric rates, we’re looking at $2-3 for the 10-15kwhs needed to go 40 or so miles. That’s been close to my daily commute lately, so I’m spending about $1/day less in EV than HV.
When I get back to Oregon it will be $3 gas and $.10/kWh, so the economics will be slightly more advantageous. And our solar offsets 40% of our annual usage, so I could say the electric cost is $.06/kWh.
Nothing is free. Even in the land of $4 gas and $.20/kWh electric rates, we’re looking at $2-3 for the 10-15kwhs needed to go 40 or so miles. That’s been close to my daily commute lately, so I’m spending about $1/day less in EV than HV.
When I get back to Oregon it will be $3 gas and $.10/kWh, so the economics will be slightly more advantageous. And our solar offsets 40% of our annual usage, so I could say the electric cost is $.06/kWh.
Except that you also paid for the solar, either you have a loan or you used capital which is now not earning any income.
I also have solar (which has not reached full payback, so the "savings" go against my investment) but since I use 100% of what I generate, the marginal cost of using electricity to charge the car is the same as the grid rate, because that is where it ends up coming from.
Not trying to be negative, just my own honesty requires me to acknowledge up-front costs along with per-unit costs, and I don't claim to be "driving on solar" because I know my house was using all my output before I got the car.
No loans here. The solar project was paid for with the proceeds from the sale of a property we were thrilled to have sold.
We’re on a well. Water pressure is lost during a power outage. In addition to the panels we installed a bank of batteries that powers mission critical systems. After federal and state incentives the cost was equivalent to a generator, which would make noise, emit exhaust, need to be fed and offset exactly zero percent of our consumption. A break even or payback point never crossed our minds. It’s paid for. The rest is history.
Yes, the money could have been invested to make more money. More money would not keep the water flowing or the beer cold.
I also realize that I will never recover the money, in reduced fuel costs, of buying a new Clarity as compared to continuing to drive the old car. At some point the new car will be $23K down the drain.
Remember, nothing is free.
We’re on a well. Water pressure is lost during a power outage. In addition to the panels we installed a bank of batteries that powers mission critical systems. After federal and state incentives the cost was equivalent to a generator, which would make noise, emit exhaust, need to be fed and offset exactly zero percent of our consumption. A break even or payback point never crossed our minds. It’s paid for. The rest is history.
Yes, the money could have been invested to make more money. More money would not keep the water flowing or the beer cold.
I also realize that I will never recover the money, in reduced fuel costs, of buying a new Clarity as compared to continuing to drive the old car. At some point the new car will be $23K down the drain.
Remember, nothing is free.
coutinpe
Active Member
In any case, it kinda feels better noticing one is spending less on gas at the pump, although it will require a bit of math to figure out the actual savings I made once the power bill comes up (bimonthly). I suspect the savings will not be that big, especially if my general consumption went beyond 1000 KwH (Tier 2 LADWP). California is a ripoff for consumers both in gas and electricity. While for whatever the reason it seems that anything that happens in the middle east impacts gas prices only in California and not the rest of the country, there is also a whole load of taxes on top of the wildly varying prices of gas. Lots of added taxes on power too. And our governor scratch his head trying to figure out why gas prices in CA are twice than anywhere else in the country. Go figure...
What's the value of the time and trouble of getting to a gas station and filling up (for some, while standing in the cold)? Also, there's likely much less chance of getting car-jacked in your garage than at a gas station.
Well this is great! California's taxes and incentives are having the desired effect. If we are talking true costs then environmental ones have to be built in too, which typically isn't in all our fossil fuel burning. To some extent California is doing it. The price of fuel elsewhere doesn't reflect total costs. We likely wouldn't have the Clarity anywhere in the country or even the standardized plugs that we are using if it were not for CA.
Electric cars are only a very small part of the solution of course. But up here in Big Three land we aren't doing anything at all. Once you buy a car there are no inspections of any kind at all in Michigan, emissions or safety. And the mix of sources that goes into our energy grid put it near the bottom of the pile in terms of pollutants. Puts us firmly in the not even trying end of the spectrum.
Electric cars are only a very small part of the solution of course. But up here in Big Three land we aren't doing anything at all. Once you buy a car there are no inspections of any kind at all in Michigan, emissions or safety. And the mix of sources that goes into our energy grid put it near the bottom of the pile in terms of pollutants. Puts us firmly in the not even trying end of the spectrum.
bpratt
Active Member
Even at $2.00 per gallon, I still think it is costing you less to drive your Clarity. Since we calculate gas miles in miles/gallon, I believe we should calculate electric vehicles using miles/KWh. I have been tracking my Clarity since I purchased it in December 2017. In the summer I average about 4.2 miles per KWh and in the winter its around 3 miles per KWh. If I use an average of 3.6 miles per KWh at 11 cents per KWh, tells me it costs you about 3.1 cents per mile to drive your Clarity. If you are driving an ICE auto, and were getting 50 miles per gallon at $2.00, your cost is 4 cents per mile. Your ICE auto would have to get over 65 miles per gallon to be cheaper to run than the Clarity.
What is the “desired effect”?
Do arbitrary fees, taxes, tests and regulations created by legislators somehow accurately represent the “true cost” of burning fossil fuels?
My pre-scandal VW diesel blew smoke like a tractor pull at the state fair, yet it passed CA and OR emissions tests year after year. Are the tests just a way to extract $50 from my wallet each year?
LA/Long Beach, Fresno, Bakersfield, San Jose and Oakland consistently make the top of the list for US cities with high ozone and particulate matter. They’ve recently had some of the worst air quality in years.
What is the true cost of generating and delivering the electricity we all demand to cool our homes and charge our cars? Demand will only increase as more EV’s are sold. Factor in loss of life from wildfires caused by downed power lines. Property damage, pollution from smoke, injuries and illnesses, firefighting cost, fire retardant dropped in watersheds, clean up and reforestation costs, etc. Climate change didn’t cause the fire, failed power distribution equipment did.
My first 20 years were spent in Michigan and I still own property there. I lived in California for over 30 years before selling the farm and moving to Oregon. I won’t even go into the homeless problem and urban blight in CA. There is nothing good about the California model. I don’t have many concerns, but one of them is that other states or the country, follows California’s lead.
The desired effect is less carbon emission. Local pollution is a relatively small part of the picture when one is fouling up the planet at a breakneck speed. Ignoring the environmental costs in the price of fuel has encouraged this. It is cheaper to build poorly insulated homes that guzzle energy. Average home sizes have increased and become wasteful. Sales of inefficient SUVs overwhelm those of more efficient cars in large part because of gas prices. The reversal in the mid 2000s gas price spike pretty much proved that. You may or may not like the policies personally, but CA policies have had the effect they desired.
And greenhouse gases hang around for hundreds of years. The US has, and continues to contribute to an overwhelming fraction of the greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. It is orders of magnitude more per person than any other country. So this is a problem that needs to be tackled.
You and I are driving this car and discussing things here because of California laws. If it were up to the Michigan and its lawmakers we would be driving 70s style gas guzzlers. The congressional and lobbying record is crystal clear.
MrFixit
Well-Known Member
This seems almost too good to be true. Can you elaborate?
Was your previous vehicle a gas hog? How many miles during this 1st 3 month period?
An example for discussion:
Using @bpratt number of 3 cents per mile in EV (11 cents per kWh rate),
if your previous vehicle got 25 MPG and gas was $2.50 / gal, you would have to drive 7500 miles in 3 months (30K miles per year) to save $400.
This also assumes 100% EV (unlikely at 30K miles per year).
Our electricity cost was a basically a wash. It cost us $8 more the 3 months this year. My wife works 13 miles away, 2-3 days a week where she gets free charging. We saved the $408 on gas. Our previous car was a 2004 Grand Am. We would frequently get 30 mpg highway in the summer with it. So I wouldn't call it a gas hog, maybe a pig, but not a hog. Did about 4,000 miles the first 3 months we had the Clarity. Didn't make any special trips either year during that time frame. I expect we will get even better savings the next 3 months as both years we drove to Lancaster, PA and that cost us a lot less this year.
MrFixit
Well-Known Member
Well, you can't argue with "free energy" !!!
Nope. We typically buy gas once a month when my wife drives across state and back. During that 3 months we made it 2 weeks without paying for gas or charging at home.
The per capita emissions statistic is wonderful for making Americans feel bad about themselves for having a comfortable lifestyle.
China emits twice the amount of CO2 as the US. A difference in population doesn’t make it less. Twice as much CO2 with four times the population, means the US emits twice as much per person. Orders of magnitude? Not so much. Should we strive to match their per capita income as well?
I can assure you that California is not leading the way in building smaller homes.
You are correct that I do not like the policies in California. They have accomplished little of value. Sure, it may have created a small market of overpriced electric and hybrid vehicles that would be a tough sell without federal and state incentives. Air quality is as bad or worse than it was 20 years ago. Traffic is atrocious, the roads are awful and lower income individuals are burdened by high fuel prices.
A few of my Tesla driving friends are man/woman enough to admit that their vehicle is powered by dirty electricity. Most truly believe they are driving a zero emission vehicle.
I didn’t buy the car to save the world. I understand that a great deal of resources and energy were required to manufacture a new vehicle and it was transported across the Pacific on a bunker oil burning ship. It isn’t that much more fuel efficient that my previous vehicle. It was simply time for a new car and the feds, state and manufacturer helped me out to the tune of $15K.
I also understand that it still burns gas and needs a source of electricity to charge the batteries. Both have an environmental impact as well as other impacts on human life. I’m unconvinced as to which is most detrimental.
David Towle
Well-Known Member
Very nice summary of reality Landshark. Bravo!
coutinpe
Active Member
Impossible to imagine a better convenience than "refueling" at home. For me that's one of the best incentives, not having to drive to the pump, especially to the long lines at costco due to the almost $1 difference with the other pumps in CA...