Has Honda reliability and quality slipped?!

[jeff10236]

I left out another important factor to consider...

CR's ratings of any given model varies year by year. Not just model year by model year, but this year they rate the 2018 Clarity 1/5 in reliability, next year, it could be quite different. The current Civic came out in 2016. A year or two ago, the 2016 was rated at 1/5 (much worse than average), and now the 2016 is rated as 4/5 (better than average) in reliability. Now, since it is based upon how a car fares v. the average, it is possible that Hondas have more initial issues than other makes (especially other reliable makes), but that it ages better than most. It is possible that they are statistical anomalies based upon who choose to return the surveys in a given year. It is also possible it has a completely different cause. CR doesn't really address that, and it is just speculation as to why it happens. However, it is one of many reasons IMO to consider what they say, but to consider the larger picture as well and not take their current ratings as gospel.

 

[Mark11230]

If I may weigh in here...I am the last person to be a fan of Consumer Reports. As an auto enthusiast, I have always felt that their eye was too clinical and devoid of any passion. However, I am a new auto broker in the NY NJ area and unlike a traditional dealership I am the point man for all of my clients automotive needs. I sell / lease all makes and models (as long as they are new). Many times clients will call me with questions about their vehicles or auto insurance, maintenance etc... I have been doing this for almost twenty years and over the past 12-18 months, I have been getting an INSANE amount of clients calling me that their (almost) brand new vehicle is having issues....

Examples:
2018 Odyssey / 3 days old / Right Side Power Sliding Door will not open from the dashboard switch
2018 Odyssey / 1 month old / AC blows warm air
2019 Odyssey / 3 months old / AC blows warm air
2019 Odyssey / from new feels sluggish and underpowered
2019 Pilot / 3 months old / transmission slipping
2018 Accord Touring / from new horrible electrical noise coming from rear right speaker even when audio is off
2018 Odyssey / 4 months old / rear camera does not function
2019 Odyssey / 2 months old / Infotainment screen turns on, displays the Honda 'H' logo and then freezes
2018 CRV EX / burning oil at 2 qts a month
2019 Acura TLX / brand new / under hard acceleration, the check engine light goes on and car goes into limp mode
2018 Odyssey / 8 months old / starts, but refused to go into gear.
And the worst one....2018 Accord EX-L. We deliver the car to customer on a Thursday. It was raining. He calls me Friday morning to tell me these is water in the car. I tell him the sunroof must have been open. He swears not. I have the car brought into the dealer. They discover that the FIREWALL was never welded. Water was getting into the frame and then into the passenger compartment...THIS IS DONE BY A ROBOT!!! How can that get messed up???

This was all from memory. I am sure there were a few more and of course, there are some clients that probably just went to the dealers and never bothered even contacting me. After the last one (Acura TLX, yesterday) I actually googles 'what happened to Honda quality' and found this forum.

So, to give my two cents....I am a huge fan of Honda. And yes, they have been 'bulletproof' for decades, but lately, something is going on with R&D and quality control. How a robot can miss a major weld is beyond me. I was telling a coworker that maybe it's corporate espionage! You can blame new models and new engines etc and that may indeed be the culprit, but I will be avoiding these products until they are at least three years in to their respective model cycles and hope that by then Honda will have dealt with all the teething issues.

 

[MNSteve]

So, to give my two cents....I am a huge fan of Honda. And yes, they have been 'bulletproof' for decades, but lately, something is going on with R&D and quality control. How a robot can miss a major weld is beyond me. I was telling a coworker that maybe it's corporate espionage! You can blame new models and new engines etc and that may indeed be the culprit, but I will be avoiding these products until they are at least three years in to their respective model cycles and hope that by then Honda will have dealt with all the teething issues.

Thank you for sharing your insight. Not what I wanted to hear but useful information.

To clarify, I assume you are seeing a significant uptick in problems reported. When did this start - a year ago, a month, a week?

And are you seeing anything similar related to other manufacturers?

 

[David Towle]

So, to give my two cents....I am a huge fan of Honda. And yes, they have been 'bulletproof' for decades, but lately, something is going on with R&D and quality control. How a robot can miss a major weld is beyond me. I was telling a coworker that maybe it's corporate espionage! You can blame new models and new engines etc and that may indeed be the culprit, but I will be avoiding these products until they are at least three years in to their respective model cycles and hope that by then Honda will have dealt with all the teething issues.

Are these issues being corrected by Honda in a timely manner in 1 or at mosty 2 visits?

 

[Mark W]

How can they accurately predict future repairs when the car has only been out about a year or so. Another thing is I now dont take any of these type of things at face value anymore. That is just an opinion. I stick to repair data (of wich thier aint any)and Honda's over all reputation. In other words i scrutinize the accuracy of this report as much as the news media these days. Kbb is now influenced greatly by certain auto makers. So as the world changes verify all such reports and realize that bias is the new norm.

CR compiles survey returns from users, and doesn't accept advertising, what bias do you suspect with them?

 

[Mark W]

It's not like CR's findings are any different than other car rating organizations that I have researched. All data I have seen seems to point to Honda slipping from close to the top to closer to the middle of the pack. They sell a lot of cars based on being a reliable brand. They need to work to move themselves back up.

 

[David Towle]

It does seem there has been a slow downslide for Honda as the values of founder Soichiro gradually faded. I think they have become too cost focused. Toyota is still in the Toyoda family and they seem to maintain more of the traditional Japanese values. On this side of the pond the American Honda organization and dealers has always had issues, never good with customer care.

 

[Mark11230]

The point of my comment was not to defend or condemn CR. I just noticed that a few comments basically said "Honda is the best! We have always had Hondas and they have never let us down" etc....As someone who moves around 300 cars a year along all makes and models, I have noticed myself that Hondas have had a lot of issues lately. Much more than I expected and more than any other brand. It has been truly surprising.

To clarify, I assume you are seeing a significant uptick in problems reported. When did this start - a year ago, a month, a week?
And are you seeing anything similar related to other manufacturers?
Answer: This seemed to have started about a year+ ago when the redesigned Odyssey / Accord / CRV came out. Most issues have been with the Odyssey. The dealers have acknowledged an AC issue. There is clearly an Infotainment issue. And the Accord seems to have an issue with the Sensing Suite of features that go on the fritz all the time and flash 'unavailable.'
As for other manufacturers, I really have not seen any systemic problems with the exception of the 2017 Pacifica. About a year ago over the course of 3 days, we got numerous calls from people who's Pacificas refused to start. It was crazy. The dealers were JAMMED with Pacificas that were towed in. We could not figure out if Chrysler had sent some sort of Over The Air software update the messed up the computer or if it was the extreme cold that we had in NYC those days. To be fair, we have had ZERO issues with the 2018 and 2019, so whatever the issue was seems to have been resolved. We had a few cold days this winter too, and no problems reported.

Are these issues being corrected by Honda in a timely manner in 1 or at mostly 2 visits?
Answer: I believe so, yes.

In the case of the Accord with the water getting in....fortunately the issue was noted immediately and we were able to bring the car back to the dealer before the paperwork was funded. The dealer (who was also flabbergasted at the problem) took the car back. We changed the insurance to a different VIN and took a different unit the same day. Thankfully the client was not so upset that he decided to go for an alternate brand. He understood that it must have been an anomaly and he has had his new Accord for a few months. I have not heard any other complaints from him.

To conclude...I personally believe that Honda is rushing new tech and engines to market without enough real world testing. It's hurting their image. I too remember the Accords and Civics from the 90s and 00s. Those cars would require just basic maintenance, and would run forever. AND were a blast to drive. It's a shame.

 

[Agzand]

My observation is that as car companies rely more and more on suppliers, rather than in-house designs/parts, their reliability moves closer to average. Less reliable brands have become more reliable, and vice versa.

My other observation is that Asian brands are in general considered to be more reliable and this was not just due to less failure rate, but mainly due to having simple architectures with less integration that made it possible to repair failures easily. In the past 15 years, many European brands became too integrated and complex, any failure results in big ticket items needs to be replaced. This is cost prohibitive in US market. Therefor you see many Euro models ending up in junkyard with relatively low mileage. Japanese brands continued to use simple architectures with isolated parts that could be replaced with low cost. That is the reason you can keep a 2000's Civic on the road indefinitely by replacing cheap parts and cheap labor.

With cars becoming more complex, however, Asian cars are also becoming a computer on wheels, so I expect the future models, including Honda, again will have reliability closer to average. Currently I think Toyota is they only brand that uses relatively simple technology and more in-house parts, so they will continue to be more reliable in the future. For example they still use non-turbo engines in their bread and butter models (Corolla, Rav4, Camry). Most use regular automatic gearboxes, rather than CVTs (Corolla is a CVT). Honda has switched to turbos/CVTs for their volume models. I don't care what everyone says, a turbo engine will never be as reliable as a NA engine if they are both made to the same manufacturing tolerance.

At the end of the day, you can purchase a cheap extended Honda Care warranty and stop worrying.