GM EV1 that started it all....

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miatadan

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I remember watching the movie " Who killed the Electric Car " and " Revenge of the Electric Car "

Can not remember the retail price of the EV1 and what the range of like back than.

Now we from electric cars available from so many auto manufacturers , including Audi e-tron Sportback, Porsche Taycan to Nissan Leaf with Tesla making the electric car popular.

Once you driven a EV you can not go back to ice.

Dan
 
I don't think its fair to give the GM EV1 credit. It would be like giving credit to the electric cars that competed against the Model T and lost.
GM at the time had the skate board concept. But really the EV1 was like pioneering the compliance vehicle. The car that started it all was the Tesla Roadster. GM started a bunch of things like lead in the gasoline which lead to crime waves and did things like opposing seat belts and air bags and CARB- GM has almost never been on the right side of things. It was good at blaming its union for its bankruptcy when BMW paid its workers 2x as much (more really) with better benefits and retirements during the same period and didn't go under. Its been good at shutting factories while spending 25 billlion on ads and 25 billion on stock buy backs over the same period. And it has almost certainly been good about sponsoring endless FUD about Tesla. Its also been good about trying to keep electric car sales models from taking hold.
 
I remember when the EV1 came out, and GM had one at the auto show in my town. I went to see it, asking when it would be available in my state and was politely informed "never." It was solely a California compliance car, and GM had no intentions of ever going mainstream with electric cars.

Then, around 2002 or so (a couple years after the demise of the EV1), I was at a technology trade show where GM was hyping their "hydrogen platform" as coming any day now, they even had a spinoff called General Hydrogen. Of course it was compliance nonsense, GM has always only done enough to get government subsidies.

The Tesla Roadster really "started it all", before then car manufacturers were just tinkering with the concept.
 
101101 said:
I don't think its fair to give the GM EV1 credit. It would be like giving credit to the electric cars that competed against the Model T and lost.
GM at the time had the skate board concept. But really the EV1 was like pioneering the compliance vehicle. The car that started it all was the Tesla Roadster. GM started a bunch of things like lead in the gasoline which lead to crime waves and did things like opposing seat belts and air bags and CARB- GM has almost never been on the right side of things. It was good at blaming its union for its bankruptcy when BMW paid its workers 2x as much (more really) with better benefits and retirements during the same period and didn't go under. Its been good at shutting factories while spending 25 billlion on ads and 25 billion on stock buy backs over the same period. And it has almost certainly been good about sponsoring endless FUD about Tesla. Its also been good about trying to keep electric car sales models from taking hold.
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I've got to disagree with much of what you say here. There were some (very few) at GM that deserve credit for the EV1. Read The Car that Could by Michael Schnayerson.
The EV1 was not a compliance vehicle. Upon seeing it at the LA Auto Show in 1991, CARB realized a viable EV was possible and created the ZEV mandate, calling GM's bluff. GM had said they'd only produce the EV1 (called "Impact" at the time) if CARB would guarantee a significant (10%) amount of the CA car market. All compliance vehicles followed trying to meet the minimum capability CARB had identified as being possible from witnessing the EV1.
I gotta agree that GM has done a lot of evil and self-serving things too.
The Tesla Roadster was simply a follow-on to the GM EV1. Alan Cocconi, had designed major parts of the GM Impact (initial prototype of the EV1) as a consultant to AeroVironment (who partnered with Hughes to actually build the Impact for GM). Cocconi left AeroVironment to form AC Propulsion and designed the T-zero, a 2-seater roadster that could do 0-60 in 4 seconds. Seeing that, Tesla's Eberhard and Tarpenning paid AC Propulsion to pioneer Li-ion batteries using commodity 18605 cells. Musk saw the Li-ion T-zero put up the initial money to make the Roadster.
Basically GM's R&D department and the EV1 do deserve credit for kicking it all off. Chris Payne and Plug-In America deserve credit for thwarting GM's efforts to squelch the technology. Tesla deserves credit for taking it and running with it. Today's EV drivers deserve credit for leaning forward, many extending beyond their price comfort zone, and buying EVs as they became available and telling everyone who would listen (and then a few), how great they are.
It took many, all working toward the same goal, and contributing what they could, to make it happen despite the efforts of corporate greed.
But we're just getting started . . .
 
Perhaps I should give the EV1 more credit for showing BEVs were possible. But GM as a company seems to want to generally remain entrenched in the old ways. Recall what they did to launch Saturn and then undermine it.
 
The EV1 had a crappy range and the lithium-ion batteries we see in BEVs today were barely starting commercial production in the 90s. It was just the wrong time for EVs to make it.
 
The GenII EV1's 120 miles of range from NiMH (Nickel Metal Hydride) was fine for most driving. Had GM not rushed to replace the original Pb-A batteries with NiMH in order to better game the ZEV credits, the EV1 would have gotten over 150 miles on a charge. GM was in a great position to adopt Li-ion and would rule the roost today -- had they not killed it.
The Wright Brothers' first plane barely flew, the first cellphone took up most of a car trunk, and early photographers had to set their heavy cameras up on tripods, hide under a black cloth, and set off an explosion just to take a photo. . . . yet they all led the way. So did GM but they blew it.
 
Earl said:
The GenII EV1's 120 miles of range from NiMH (Nickel Metal Hydride) was fine for most driving. Had GM not rushed to replace the original Pb-A batteries with NiMH in order to better game the ZEV credits, the EV1 would have gotten over 150 miles on a charge. GM was in a great position to adopt Li-ion and would rule the roost today -- had they not killed it.
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GM knew that it wasn't worth pursuing cars with less than 200 miles of range and the market wasn't actually ready for an EV anyways. I doubt many people would be willing to buy a 150 mile range coupe besides the tiny number of enthusiasts.

Earl said:
The Wright Brothers' first plane barely flew, the first cellphone took up most of a car trunk, and early photographers had to set their heavy cameras up on tripods, hide under a black cloth, and set off an explosion just to take a photo.
Click to expand...

What kind of crap point is this? Being the first to produce a new technology or product doesn't guarantee that you will be the market leader indefinitely. You do realize that Apple wasn't the first to make smart phones right? Sometimes it's better to sit back and watch how someone else does something first so you know how to improve it and it's easier to improve the design when you didn't come up with the original - the sunk cost fallacy is a thing.
 
SouthernDude said:
GM knew that it wasn't worth pursuing cars with less than 200 miles of range and the market wasn't actually ready for an EV anyways. I doubt many people would be willing to buy a 150 mile range coupe besides the tiny number of enthusiasts.


What kind of crap point is this? Being the first to produce a new technology or product doesn't guarantee that you will be the market leader indefinitely. You do realize that Apple wasn't the first to make smart phones right? Sometimes it's better to sit back and watch how someone else does something first so you know how to improve it and it's easier to improve the design when you didn't come up with the original - the sunk cost fallacy is a thing.
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The EV1 was a great commuter car (did I mention I had one for 3 years?) with a great trunk for running errands but it could not be one's only car as a Tesla (and maybe MachE) can today. I know plenty of people with compliance EVs today that have much less range than the EV1. I, myself, even managed to put over 100K miles on a 1st gen Leaf as my commuter car, reducing the wear on my other cars and easily paying for itself. The problem was that GM, as a whole, didn't want to make EVs. They were too deeply invested in ICE technology and its associated business strategies. Clearly, you didn't read the Schnayerson book I referenced. The EV1 and its successors could have gone 200 miles, even with NiMH batteries and some good design. GM knew it but chose to hit the brakes, not the gas.

You also are apparently not a technology developer.

I hope you do drive an EV at least, even if you don't really understand how it got to you.

For work, I had a Handspring Visor; after that, a Nokia Symbian smartphone; and later, a Handspring Treo. These were all prior to the first iPhone. Personally, I prefer an old fashioned flip phone with good audio quality for the most part, however.

There are 2 tech business strategies, each of which sometimes work if one executes well:
1) Early bird gets the worm (if you are smart enough)
2) 2nd mouse gets the cheese (if you are tenacious or rich enough)
Over the past 30 years, GM has repeatedly blown it on both strategies with EVs.
1) They were the early birds but let the worm go. They skimped on the NiMH batteries and, later, stifled fast charging technology
2a) They followed the Tesla Roadster with the Volt and blew it. They made the drivetrain to complex and expensive to put in along with expensive batteries and lost money on every car so badly that economies of scale (which the blocked) couldn't solve.
2b) They followed the Model S and beat the Model 3 to market with the Bolt, then (so far) have stifled its rollout so that economies of scale haven't made it a money maker either.
2c) It should be interesting to see if they can actually release the HummerEV before Tesla's CyberTruck AND make a business of it. To make a business, they'll need to quickly milk the high-end truck business with the HummerEV but follow up quickly with something more mass market like a Silverado, Yukon, Colorado, and/or S-10. Otherwise, sadly, I suspect it's their 3rd strike and they'll go the way of Packard, Edsel, and AMC (or similarly, the way of Kodak, Conestoga, or Smith Corona).
 
Earl said:
The EV1 was a great commuter car (did I mention I had one for 3 years?) with a great trunk for running errands but it could not be one's only car as a Tesla (and maybe MachE) can today. I know plenty of people with compliance EVs today that have much less range than the EV1. I, myself, even managed to put over 100K miles on a 1st gen Leaf as my commuter car, reducing the wear on my other cars and easily paying for itself. The problem was that GM, as a whole, didn't want to make EVs. They were too deeply invested in ICE technology and its associated business strategies. Clearly, you didn't read the Schnayerson book I referenced. The EV1 and its successors could have gone 200 miles, even with NiMH batteries and some good design. GM knew it but chose to hit the brakes, not the gas.

You also are apparently not a technology developer.

I hope you do drive an EV at least, even if you don't really understand how it got to you.

For work, I had a Handspring Visor; after that, a Nokia Symbian smartphone; and later, a Handspring Treo. These were all prior to the first iPhone. Personally, I prefer an old fashioned flip phone with good audio quality for the most part, however.

There are 2 tech business strategies, each of which sometimes work if one executes well:
1) Early bird gets the worm (if you are smart enough)
2) 2nd mouse gets the cheese (if you are tenacious or rich enough)
Over the past 30 years, GM has repeatedly blown it on both strategies with EVs.
1) They were the early birds but let the worm go. They skimped on the NiMH batteries and, later, stifled fast charging technology
2a) They followed the Tesla Roadster with the Volt and blew it. They made the drivetrain to complex and expensive to put in along with expensive batteries and lost money on every car so badly that economies of scale (which the blocked) couldn't solve.
2b) They followed the Model S and beat the Model 3 to market with the Bolt, then (so far) have stifled its rollout so that economies of scale haven't made it a money maker either.
2c) It should be interesting to see if they can actually release the HummerEV before Tesla's CyberTruck AND make a business of it. To make a business, they'll need to quickly milk the high-end truck business with the HummerEV but follow up quickly with something more mass market like a Silverado, Yukon, Colorado, and/or S-10. Otherwise, sadly, I suspect it's their 3rd strike and they'll go the way of Packard, Edsel, and AMC (or similarly, the way of Kodak, Conestoga, or Smith Corona).
Click to expand...

lol. None of this even a refutation of anything I said. GM chose strategy 2 and it seems to be working because they are easily in the top 5 of BEV sales. GM hasn't "blown" anything yet and they won't be the next Kodak. They are actively building factories to produce BEVs - well before some of the other big auto makers too.
 
SouthernDude said:
lol. None of this even a refutation of anything I said. GM chose strategy 2 and it seems to be working because they are easily in the top 5 of BEV sales. GM hasn't "blown" anything yet and they won't be the next Kodak. They are actively building factories to produce BEVs - well before some of the other big auto makers too.
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I'll believe it when I see it. I do, sincerely, hope you are correct.
In the mean time spouting incorrect information about history is not helping anything.
It does, however, sound like you're parroting the GM party line propaganda that was distributed to employees during the EV1 era. I had friends who worked for GM that used to share their newsletters with me and, of course, they shared it freely with the press and with regulators.
I, driving an EV1,
Let's see if I recall some of the 'facts':
1) Nobody wanted the cars (denying the thousands of people on wait lists).
2) 50 miles of range is not enough (denying the 120 mile NiMH batteries or its true potential - it was somewhat true with the Pb-A batteries)
3) Charging speed is too slow for road trips (denying that fast charging was possible)
4) Fast charging would damage batteries (test results showed that, if temperatures were kept low and overcharge was prevented, fast charging is actually better for batteries than slow charging)
5) Toxic batteries to be disposed of (denying that NiMH are non-toxic - it was somewhat true with the Pb-A although they are recycled)
6) People would say they wanted an EV1 but then quit when it became available (They were extremely expensive. It took many months of waiting to get one. The addressable market consisted only of those with money to buy an expensive car that didn't really need it. This was an early market for sure but not one if they were put into serious production.
7) They could only sell 1100 cars (denying that they had only ordered parts for and set up production for 1100 cars - a good self-fulfilling prophesy. They also didn't actually sell any cars, they would only lease them. I pulled strings to get mine, to be described in a story for a different day.)

The reality:
iu

Source: anonymous subversive GM insider sent to EV1 club webmaster.
 
miatadan said:
I remember watching the movie " Who killed the Electric Car " and " Revenge of the Electric Car "

Can not remember the retail price of the EV1 and what the range of like back than.

Now we from electric cars available from so many auto manufacturers , including Audi e-tron Sportback, Porsche Taycan to Nissan Leaf with Tesla making the electric car popular.

Once you driven a EV you can not go back to ice.

Dan
Click to expand...
I also watched the documentary "Who Killed The Electric Car". It is a not always good aspect of my character that as soon as I'm told I can't have something I become determined that I will. I decided right then and there that as soon as I could afford an EV that would meet my basic needs I'd be in. I spent a few years watching YouTube videos, drooling and waiting. When Nissan offered a 30kwh pack in the 2016 Leaf things came together and I started my EV adventure. A little later I traded up for a 2018 with a 40kwh pack to get the increased range and benefits of 2 years of advancing technology before the provincial subsidies were cut.

The things that upset me the most with GM was the destruction of the EV1s when the leases ran out. It made no sense as they would have become collector items like DeLoreans. Then I figured out they destroyed them because the tech was going to seriously disrupt the status quo and was so good they didn't want any other competitor or country getting their hands on it and doing a little backward engineering.

And yes, like many contributors have said in so many words I'd be reluctant to ever purchase another ICE car after the EV experience.
 
Paul K said:
I decided right then and there that as soon as I could afford an EV that would meet my basic needs I'd be in
Click to expand...
That's why we didn't go down quietly. After we could no longer EVangelize by inviting butts in the seat of our EV1s (which was highly effective), many of us former owners got together and raised a ruckus including the Movie, and as many other EVents as we could think of.
Thanks for hearing us and doing something about it.
Answering the question about EV1 retail price: it was not available for sale but, IIRC, the lease price for the Gen1 (Pb-A batteries) was about $360/month, while the Gen2 (NiMH batteries) brought it up to $420/month. That was a lot of money for a 120 mile sports car but it was a hoot to drive to work every day and look what it started. It was plenty of range to where I almost exceeded the 36,000 miles on my lease in the 3 years, after which I'd have had to pay onerous overage charges of $0.50/mile.
 
I wonder if the OP thread title is designed to help GM with its next begging bailout. Can't see how Ford makes it through 2023. They can't take any challenge to their F150 and their cars are down 50% year on year from 19 to 20 and overall sales globally down 25%. They have a mountain of debt and they are already as lean as they can get. They simply lack the resources and tech and a bailout won't fix it.
Look at I think GM is even more of a pretender.
 
Can you imagine where GM could have been when it had pursued an EV long-term strategy à la Tesla...
What most generic brands do, is play catch up, try to emulate what Musk is doing, but still let shareholders determine the strategy.
The whole electro-mobility trend can be much broader than that.
 
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GM would have gone out of business. The world wasn't ready for an EV. Do you remember how cheap gas was back then? EVs were just a novelty idea at best, and totally unfeasible.

It needed higher gas prices and new battery technology to get the ball rolling again. And Tesla hastened that. Now the other car makers are jumping onboard, and EVs are well on the way. There are some laggards, for sure. Stellantis is an example. But they have ICE problems, too, that will make it even harder to catch up. But Toyota, GM, Ford, Hyundia/Kia and the Germans will be there. Tesla's models are getting long in the tooth now, and will need to upgrade their technology and platforms if they want to retain their current EV market share.
 
The EV1 was on the verge of going from lead-acid to 2-3x energy density, nickel metal hydride batteries. The EV1 would have become the 'Roadster' of its day. But GM crushed them inspite of owners trying to stop the destruction.

The irony is Elon and the founders of Tesla realized there was an EV market GM chose to insult and ignore. Thus Tesla was born.

Bob Wilson
 
The car maker that really got the EV era started was Toyota with the Prius. It had great sales and reliability, and gave the EV category true credibility. Then Tesla came along, and took the next step forward with their full blown BEVS. Now everyone is jumping into BEVs, and no turning back. ICE cars are history.
 
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