First winter driving with 2020 Clarity in Canada

[Landshark]

The majority of people I talk to about PHEVs are interested in using EV for as much of their driving as possible with the ICE as a backup. They need to be just as aware of the drop in winter range as a BEV driver.

They should be made aware. They should also realize that reduced EV range with a PHEV is not a significant issue, whereas a BEV with 150-175 miles of range could easily be reduced to ~100 miles or less in cold weather. A BEV has no back up plan.

BEVs are not significantly affected by reduced winter range for daily driving because their range far exceeds what is needed on a daily basis. If they plan on using them for extended road trips, reduced range and charging options do come into play. Many have other vehicles available if needed.

Just about anything can handle daily driving. If they have another car, why buy an expensive BEV and lug around that 100kWh battery just to get groceries?

In your old tech example of a 75D, very few people need 148 miles on a daily basis.

I referenced the 75D since it was part of the AAA report, which is part of this discussion. Your statement got me thinking about how rewarding it must feel to all those buyers who popped $80K+, just a few years ago on a car that is now, as you say, “old tech”. That can’t be good for resale values. Do you anticipate that the cutting edge technology rolling out of the factory today will be considered “old tech” in 3-5 years? Who would want to own or buy such a relic?

 

[PHEVDave]

They should be made aware. They should also realize that reduced EV range with a PHEV is not a significant issue, whereas a BEV with 150-175 miles of range could easily be reduced to ~100 miles or less in cold weather. A BEV has no back up plan.

That’s a good point. You pull out of the garage to make a 100 mile trip to a place where there is ability to re-charge. Your range-o-meter says you have 125 miles. Should be no problem. But then, because the weather is a little colder, you find out that your true range becomes a little less than 100 miles. Now you have a problem because there’s nowhere nearby to recharge.

 

[insightman]

Hi guys, I don't use heat a lot since I live in California. But I assume, if you run in HV, I would imagine the Clarity would use the "free heat" from the ICE engine, no?

You are correct--the Clarity Plug-In Hybrid uses engine heat to heat the cabin when the engine is running.

 

[insightman]

That’s a good point. You pull out of the garage to make a 100 mile trip to a place where there is ability to re-charge. Your range-o-meter says you have 125 miles. Should be no problem. But then, because the weather is a little colder, you find out that your true range becomes a little less than 100 miles. Now you have a problem because there’s nowhere nearby to recharge.

If you have a heated garage, your car's Guess-O-Meter could be fooled into thinking it's summer and report an over-optimistic range estimate. My Clarity lives in an unheated garage and my small, sporty, limited-range BEV lives in the driveway. Both cars adjust their cold weather range estimates with impressive accuracy.

 

[Landshark]

You are correct--the Clarity Plug-In Hybrid uses engine heat to heat the cabin when the engine is running.

And, the engine will also do a reasonable job of maintaining the battery SOC. So if resistance heat is being used, seat warmers, the battery will not be depleted.

 

[Landshark]

If you have a heated garage, your car's Guess-O-Meter could be fooled into thinking it's summer and report an over-optimistic range estimate. My Clarity lives in an unheated garage and my small, sporty, limited-range BEV lives in the driveway. Both cars adjust their cold weather range estimates with impressive accuracy.

Even an unheated garage will tend to be 10-20F warmer than the outside temperature. Mine is currently 55F and the outside temperature is 41F. So, rolling out of the garage, the car, if it can, thinks that it is 55F. The battery will warm with use as well. If it is just been charged, they’ll be even warmer.

It is completely different than a car that has been sitting outside.

 

[Chris Messer]

Fellow Canadian here - this will be my 3rd winter driving the car.

I park in a heated garage. I can attest that it makes not a heck of a lot of difference for range in the winter. The car still seems to calculate based on the outside temps and range while actually driving. In summer I am getting high 70s KM per charge. In winter it usually will say 40ish km , but I get closer to mid 30s in reality. I am using winter tires as well which certainly impacts the range. I don't worry about turning on the heater to the temp I want , after all I am not going to give up being comfortable to save a couple drops of gas.

My commute is about 42km (when I was working in office pre-CoVid). I park indoors heated at work as well. In summer of course never a problem. In winter, I usually end up on gas the last couple minutes unless traffic is very light and I control my heavy foot!

I always run EV as much as possible , and just let it kick in once the range runs out. It's never been an issue at all.

Still very happy with the car , though I am likely going to change in a couple years when the lease runs out. My wife ordered a RAV4 PHEV to replace her Outlander (1.5 years in advance just to make sure it gets there in time), but I still dunno what I'll go with.

Speaking of the Outlander PHEV , this vehicle has been pretty much a disappointment. The ICE motor kicks in immediately if the weather is cold , and overall the whole PHEV experience is not great compared with a Clarity. So my advice is to scratch that one off your list if it was in consideration.

 

[David Towle]

My driving in CT was 100% on gas. In winter I drove 2 different scenarios:
1. Short distances under 15 miles, run in EV and leave the heat off. I'm out of the wind and dressed for outdoors so it felt fine.
2. Long distances, turn on HV Charge as soon as I get in the car, wait about 5 minutes of driving until I turn on the heat. If on the highway turn to HV after another 5 minutes unless more charge is needed.
Both of these scenarios typically resulted in 30-35% winter range reduction despite avoiding the electric heat. An annoying 225 or so miles range. In fact, driving near 80 mph in HV Charge would fill the battery incredibly slowly, maybe 1 mile every 5-10 minutes, just barely refilling. Almost all the power goes to propulsion in the cold at that speed.

But now I just moved to Florida so my numbers should change a lot. Still will be running on gas for awhile with no capability to charge the car till Spring.

 

[Landshark]

In fact, driving near 80 mph in HV Charge would fill the battery incredibly slowly, maybe 1 mile every 5-10 minutes, just barely refilling. Almost all the power goes to propulsion in the cold at that speed.

A 4250lb passenger car with a Cd of 0.32 on a smooth flat surface, requires a total of 43hp to maintain a speed of 80mph. 34hp for aerodynamic resistance and 9hp for rolling resistance. The Clarity may have a lower Cd, perhaps 0.26-0.28, and the Energy Saver tires could reduce rolling resistance somewhat. It’s possible that 40hp or less would be required for the car to maintain 80mph. There should be plenty of power remaining to charge the battery.

More likely, what is occurring is the BMS is not allowing HV Charge to charge cold batteries at the full charge rate. I haven’t used HV+ more than a few times. On one occasion, at 80mph in warm temperatures, it brought the battery gauge from 2 bars to 10 bars in less than 45 minutes. So, it will charge at 80mph.

It would be interesting to hear from others who use HV+ to charge the battery in cold temperatures. If they have a similar experience to yours, then there is a point of diminishing returns at some temperature where it would be more beneficial to plug in the car to charge the battery. It would probably be more efficient, under such conditions, to simply drive in HV.

 

[Danks]

A 4250lb passenger car with a Cd of 0.32 on a smooth flat surface, requires a total of 43hp to maintain a speed of 80mph. 34hp for aerodynamic resistance and 9hp for rolling resistance. The Clarity may have a lower Cd, perhaps 0.26-0.28, and the Energy Saver tires could reduce rolling resistance somewhat. It’s possible that 40hp or less would be required for the car to maintain 80mph. There should be plenty of power remaining to charge the battery.

More likely, what is occurring is the BMS is not allowing HV Charge to charge cold batteries at the full charge rate. I haven’t used HV+ more than a few times. On one occasion, at 80mph in warm temperatures, it brought the battery gauge from 2 bars to 10 bars in less than 45 minutes. So, it will charge at 80mph.

It would be interesting to hear from others who use HV+ to charge the battery in cold temperatures. If they have a similar experience to yours, then there is a point of diminishing returns at some temperature where it would be more beneficial to plug in the car to charge the battery. It would probably be more efficient, under such conditions, to simply drive in HV.

I posted the results of an HV charge experiment last Dec 2. The experiment was done on a typical early Dec. day in Michigan. I don't remember the temperature exactly, but I would figure 35 ish. https://insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/hv-charge-mpg-experiment-and-results.7695/

 

[David Towle]

A 4250lb passenger car with a Cd of 0.32 on a smooth flat surface, requires a total of 43hp to maintain a speed of 80mph. 34hp for aerodynamic resistance and 9hp for rolling resistance. The Clarity may have a lower Cd, perhaps 0.26-0.28, and the Energy Saver tires could reduce rolling resistance somewhat. It’s possible that 40hp or less would be required for the car to maintain 80mph. There should be plenty of power remaining to charge the battery.

Several things you are neglecting here: Drag goes up as temperature drops, due to the greater density and total weight of the air you are pushing out of the way. Rolling resistance also goes up with temperature dropping, due to everything from tire flex to grease and oil viscosity. Engine efficiency goes down, again due to more resistance, although available engine power may go up due to denser air (mini-turbocharging). How much for each I don't know, my guess is rolling and engine losses go up much faster than air drag.

Today in Florida I was charging around 50 mph and was adding about a mile to range for every mile and a half I traveled. Versus the low of over 10 miles travelled per mile added in CT cold at 80.

The biggest factor I think, and one of many reasons I like using HV Charge, is the car doesn't go into panic mode (angry bees some have called it) in HV Charge, the engine speed stays much steadier than in HV mode. So its likely the engine is nowhere near maximum power output.

 

[Landshark]

Several things you are neglecting here: Drag goes up as temperature drops, due to the greater density and total weight of the air you are pushing out of the way. Rolling resistance also goes up with temperature dropping, due to everything from tire flex to grease and oil viscosity. Engine efficiency goes down, again due to more resistance, although available engine power may go up due to denser air (mini-turbocharging). How much for each I don't know, my guess is rolling and engine losses go up much faster than air drag.

I neglected those factors purposely. If you can demonstrate their significance, I’ll gladly take them into consideration.

Today in Florida I was charging around 50 mph and was adding about a mile to range for every mile and a half I traveled. Versus the low of over 10 miles travelled per mile added in CT cold at 80.

At 55mph the engine will only need to provide ~16hp to maintain speed. Certainly, more generated electricity would be available to charge the battery at that speed.
I’d be skeptical of using displayed EV range as an accurate gauge for determining the rate at which the battery is being charged. 60% SOC could show 20 miles of range on a car driven in cold temperatures compared to 30 miles or more on a car driven in warm temperatures.

Danks linked a thread and posted that HV Charge added ~1 mile for every 3 miles driven at 33F and speeds of 65-70mph. Another member stated reaching max charge in 35 miles at 55mph. I reached 50% in less than 45 minutes at 75-80mph and that included the 3-5 minutes it takes HV Charge to warm up and get working.

I can’t explain why you were only getting 1 mile of added range for every 10 miles travelled. It definitely isn’t in line with what others are experiencing.

 

[Ohliuw]

Second winter on Clarity in Ottawa/Gatineau. I now added RAV4 Prime and regret not buying a second Claroty instead.

especially with the 2021 price increase in Canada!

 

[insightman]

Second winter on Clarity in Ottawa/Gatineau. I now added RAV4 Prime and regret not buying a second Claroty instead.

especially with the 2021 price increase in Canada!

Why don't you like your RAV4 Prime? The supply is so far behind demand, you can probably sell it for more than you paid for it (unless your Toyota dealer made you pay way more than MSRP).

 

[Ohliuw]

Why don't you like your RAV4 Prime? The supply is so far behind demand, you can probably sell it for more than you paid for it (unless your Toyota dealer made you pay way more than MSRP).

paid MSRP, but added some extras because I wanted them (condom, extended warranty etc).

aside from few issues that I believe can be resolved (although Toyota doesn’t really care), I hate the fact that they didn’t add resistance heating, so I can’t warm it up remotely when below -10C. They advertise remote climate conditioning, but fail to mention that it doesn’t work when you really need it. You only find about the is fakap when you freeze your behind for the first time in the car.

 

[insightman]

paid MSRP, but added some extras because I wanted them (condom, extended warranty etc).

aside from few issues that I believe can be resolved (although Toyota doesn’t really care), I hate the fact that they didn’t add resistance heating, so I can’t warm it up remotely when below -10C. They advertise remote climate conditioning, but fail to mention that it doesn’t work when you really need it. You only find about the is fakap when you freeze your behind for the first time in the car.

I mistakenly assumed all EVs have resistance heating, with the better ones adding a heat pump. So I was admiring the RAV4 Prime for having a heat pump without knowing it requires the engine to provide heat when the weather gets too cold for the heat pump to work. Does the extended warranty transfer with the car to a new owner? If so, the public's RAV4 Prime fever could still enable you to make a profit from selling it.

 

[Ohliuw]

I mistakenly assumed all EVs have resistance heating, with the better ones adding a heat pump. So I was admiring the RAV4 Prime for having a heat pump without knowing it requires the engine to provide heat when the weather gets too cold for the heat pump to work. Does the extended warranty transfer with the car to a new owner? If so, the public's RAV4 Prime fever could still enable you to make a profit from selling it.

I guess it’s just too much common sesne. Not sure why Toyota would skip adding $10-$20 heating element, so dumb!

yes, it does transfer. I will see if someone comes with ICE remote starter, although there are other challenges there.

 

[Mass Clarity owner]

My driving in CT was 100% on gas. In winter I drove 2 different scenarios:
1. Short distances under 15 miles, run in EV and leave the heat off. I'm out of the wind and dressed for outdoors so it felt fine.
2. Long distances, turn on HV Charge as soon as I get in the car, wait about 5 minutes of driving until I turn on the heat. If on the highway turn to HV after another 5 minutes unless more charge is needed.
Both of these scenarios typically resulted in 30-35% winter range reduction despite avoiding the electric heat. An annoying 225 or so miles range. In fact, driving near 80 mph in HV Charge would fill the battery incredibly slowly, maybe 1 mile every 5-10 minutes, just barely refilling. Almost all the power goes to propulsion in the cold at that speed.

But now I just moved to Florida so my numbers should change a lot. Still will be running on gas for awhile with no capability to charge the car till Spring.

I also drive the Clarity in New England winter climate. And, yes, the battery indicated range does go down on colder days. But also, I've noticed that the driving characteristics have a big effect on the GoM calculation. For example, normally we drive the Clarity for totally local trips each day (say, 4 excursions of 3-6 miles each time). And then charge - on a normal 120v line - each night. Next morning GoM projects, say, 32mile EV range. Then if we change the pattern and drive on the highway (EV mode, some HV mode as necessary) one day for 40 miles, and then charge the same way under the same winter temperatures, the next day the GoM will project 40 miles EV range.