Finally taking the EV dive but having trouble deciding

R

Robert Brown

New Member
Finally committing to buying my first EV in the next month or two for various reasons. Really open to possibilities, but there are 2 things I require. I have 4 kids and on occasion I take them all to school, so I need to have 5 seat capacity, tight in the back is fine, but 3 kids have to fit in the rear seat. Second, the only option I really really have come to rely on and want is adaptive cruise. Used is definitely an option. I have a roughly 1 hour commute to work 1 way, about 100 miles/day, so I feel like having 200 mile range or more is sufficient (extra for age/weather/etc...)Was wanting to stay in mid $35K after any tax rebate, but seem to be drifting up to $40K in my shopping...

I'm in NC, so the new Hyundai/Kias are not even sold here. The chevy bolt EV has no adaptive, so its eliminated. The Bolt EUV only has it on the top trim, can find those new on occasion for ~$39K. The Mustang Mach -E base model seems great after rebate... but that lead time, and finding one on a lot here seems impossible. The VW ID4, again seems promising, but terrible lead time. I can find them on lots new in the ~$46K range, ordering has terrible lead time, used are as expensive as new, but lack the rebate making them too expensive. Tesla Model 3's new are unavailable and again, terrible lead time to order. Used 3's start around $41K for 3 year old models 50K plus miles.
So my last option, and the one I'm almost leaning towards is an older used Tesla Model S. Would that be a huge mistake maintenance/expense and reliability wise? They have room, the features I want, and start in the mid $35K-40K range it seems and I would hope I would be getting a great experience in one?
To make a long story short my options seem to boil down to:
Older Tesla Model S with the AP1 at least for adaptive cruise $35-40K
Chevy Bolt EUV premier with adaptive for ~$39K
VW ID4 in the $46K range but with the $7500 tax incentive
Get lucky finding a Mach-E base some day for around $45K?
Maybe possibly find a Tesla Model 3 used in the sub $40K range with some luck and patience?

Any options I'm missing? Am I asking for trouble with an older Model S?
 
About any of your candidates, I recommend getting a free account in user forums that support that make. For example:
I also monitor other a Hyundai forum but only to correct misinformation about Prius or Tesla products.

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson
 
As a former Bolt owner (mine was bought back related to the recall and I got a really nice check), keep in mind they're under stop sale if the battery pack hasn't been replaced. So, you'll need to a non-GM source for one as GM dealers aren't allowed to sell Bolts w/open recalls.
 
Robert Brown said:
I'm in NC, so the new Hyundai/Kias are not even sold here.
...
So my last option, and the one I'm almost leaning towards is an older used Tesla Model S. Would that be a huge mistake maintenance/expense and reliability wise?

Any options I'm missing? Am I asking for trouble with an older Model S?
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I don't know your zip code but EV6 is allegedly available if I put in 28210 into https://www.kia.com/us/en/inventory/result?zipCode=28210&seriesId=N&year=2022. Unfortunately, they'll probably be marked up.

As for your Model S question, yes. Model S reliability in Consumer Reports is not very good. It got a predicted reliability rating of 1/5. I wouldn't want to keep such a vehicle much beyond the basic warranty and for sure not beyond the drive unit and battery pack warranty.

FWIW, I'm leasing a Niro EV for 3 years now. Prior to it, I had a '19 Bolt for 3 years but had it bought back. I also had two '13 Leafs spanning almost 8 years w/almost 2.5 year overlap w/Bolt.
 
gooki said:
Be patient and order a Model 3.
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I agree based on our experience with a 2019 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus and a 2014 BMW i3-REx:
  • SuperCharger vs CCS-1 - a single vendor, Tesla, for both vehicle and charging means the SuperChargers are relatively reliable, fast, and affordable. Many CCS-1 vehicles suffer slower charging rates that increases their charge session costs. For example, our 2014 BMW i3-REx limits peak charging to 50 kW versus a maximum, peak 170 kW with our Tesla.
  • AutoPilot standard - this driver assistant offloads a lot of highway driving drudgery. Some CCS-1 EVs: (1) may have it as an extra cost; (2) may require a more expensive trim, and; (3) may be 'geo fenced' limiting where they work. In contrast, AutoPilot works pretty much anywhere including State roads.
  • Crash standard - relative to other CCS-1 cars, especially adaptations of existing ICE bodies, the Teslas are designed to exceed crash testing requirements. The Teslas tend to have lower gross weights yet superior crush structures.
  • Efficiency - although electricity rates vary, the Tesla have some of the most affordable, lowest kWh / 100 mile ratings in the EPA fueleconomy,gov.
These may not be on your mandatory or optional requirements but they are things you might consider.

Bob Wilson
 
Ok, so I'm leaning more towards a model 3 now, as I was in the beginning. But new is definitely more money than I wanted to spend. I'm assuming reliability/maintenance on a used 3 would be much better than a used model S? They seem to start around $41K for a 2019 with 30-50k miles. I'm willing to budget up from my original 35-40k range if i get a superior product. Would such a used model 3 be a decent investment over some of the other new models for less? Also on the Chevy bolt EUV, they appear to be listed for sale again, though I have not went to a dealer to discuss, are they just shown on websites and not really available or are they trickling back out again? The price/features on those seemed extremely attractive and was one of my early primary targets until I read about the recall.
 
I often recommend going with a used car when adopting a new technology. Given what I know of Tesla cars, I would only consider 2018 and later as they will have the hardware (or free upgrade) that supports the latest Tesla software. Some earlier Teslas are computer and sensor limited. Go cautiously for Teslas before 2018.

I would also suggest that 'end of lease' Plug-in Hybrid (PHEV) should be looked at. We had very good luck with our four seat, 2014 BMW i3-REx. As long as the PHEV has:
  • ~50 mile EV range
  • Fast DC charging
With such a PHEV, you would be OK while letting the EV market 'settle out.'

Going in with a new EV is a bit like learning to swim by jumping into the deep end of the pool. You'll probably survive but won't have any fond memories.

GOOD LUCK!

Bob Wilson
 
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Robert Brown said:
Also on the Chevy bolt EUV, they appear to be listed for sale again, though I have not went to a dealer to discuss, are they just shown on websites and not really available or are they trickling back out again?
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All Bolt EVs and EUVs are on stop sale (GM dealers needed to abide by this) until their packs are replaced to address an open recall. Non-GM sources don't need to abide by the stop sale.

You can put in the VIN into one of the places at the top of https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/battery-replacement-recall-remedy-tracking-summary.41131/ to see if it has an open recall. Near the bottom of https://www.donohoochevrolet.com/blogs/3987/bolt-recall-update-batteries-incoming describes the 3 possible states of Bolts they have might.

If the recall number ends in 881, then that '17 to '19 Bolt is eligible for a pack. Otherwise, it will either end in 883 (eligible for 80% temp limiter patch but applying that does NOT close the recall) or it might have no open recalls (pack replaced).

For '20 to '22, almost all will end in 940 w/incomplete, remedy not yet available. If it gets flipped to 941, it is eligible for a pack. Probably the only ones that will have no open recalls are the few that got their packs replaced or the "courtesy cars" (https://www.freep.com/story/money/c...-recall-gm-production-loaner-cars/8549367002/) built in Nov 2021. Some folks w/recalled Bolts are being offered those Nov 2021 built cars that presumably have the non-defective batteries.

I don't recall if https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ril-4-as-recall-battery-replacements-continue is still correct. Bolt production at Orion (only plant where they are built) has stopped for months and the restart has been postponed several times.

https://www.chevybolt.org/threads/recall-quarterly-report-2021-3.41181/#post-687851 was the most recent quarterly report as to how many US Bolts have been remedied via pack replacement. 880 is for '17 to '19. 940 is for '20 to '22.

Just like the report says, based on what I've seen in chevybolt.org and various Bolt FB groups, almost nobody with a '20 to '22 Bolt has been able to get their pack replaced (VIN not eligible). The very few '20 to '22 who have gotten a replacement likely had a battery failure (e.g. dealer hit a problem, flagged by existing firmware or the 80% temp limiter patch which has additional diagnostics).

I know Bob from Priuschat days. Unfortunately, I do not recommend anyone buy a BMW i3 REx for reliability reasons. I used to mostly lurk on BMW i3 FB groups and the REx version seemed to be a reliability mess while the BEV version seemed much more reliable.

I've posted about this numerous times over the years:
http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=22118#p22118
https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=477302#p477302
https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=477632#p477632
https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=477449#p477449
 
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cwerdna said:
I know Bob from Priuschat days. Unfortunately, I do not recommend anyone buy a BMW i3 REx for reliability reasons. I used to mostly lurk on BMW i3 FB groups and the REx version seemed to be a reliability mess while the BEV version seemed much more reliable.
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I'm OK with this other than mine has 65,151 miles. The only range extender problem was a disconnect of the exhaust from the catalytic converter and muffler. It was a simple fix done at the dealer.

We did have an infantile problem with the engine motor mounts that was fixed under warranty. Any 2016 or later version should already have the fix.

Bob Wilson
 
I leased my '22 Niro EV via an auto broker in CA (https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/kia-...-2k-das-315-tax-all-ev6-in-stock-msrp/222824/) which unfortunately won't help the OP. I had a good experience and there was no funny business nor bait and switch.

The price in terms of lease payments, # of payments, $0 due at signing (what I asked for) was on the dot within a few cents (actually in my favor). I returned my Bolt on buyback on 1/28/22 (I agreed to that date w/the hosting Chevy dealer as it was the day my CA tags expired) and scheduled pickup of a Niro EV for 1/29. I flew down to So Cal the morning of 1/29 and drove it back up.

If I lived in So Cal and didn't have complications of being busy w/work, not being able to take just any day off, needing to schedule a return date for my Bolt (was waiting for hosting dealer), I probably could've gotten the car within a day or two of submitting a credit application.
 
If you intend to ever take it on any kind of medium distance trip, I really recommend a Tesla - the Supercharger network is so much better than using DCFC. Not just about speed of charge, but for the reliability: I used to pull up to a fast charger to find them out of service far too often, but Superchargers are much more reliable (yes, there may be some out of service, but because they are in clusters, 1 or 2 out of service units doesn't mean I suddenly have to drive to a whole new location - I just move to the next available unit). Teslas are also among the most efficient EVs, and it's really nice to buy directly from the manufacturer and not have to deal with a dealership.
 
If you have a second vehicle for long road trips, so you just need a commuter with room for kids, you might also consider a Leaf plus. They are good at what they are, and with the Bolt MIA, they are now among the cheapest EV, with about 225 combined "EPA" rating -> but 100 real miles should be easy. A great charge at home commuter vehicle, NOT a great travel vehicle. Just a thought.

Cwerdna might agree with me? Which is funny, since I'm planning to get rid of my Leaf. But the Leaf does have some good use cases.
 
Any options I'm missing? Am I asking for trouble with an older Model S?[/QUOTE]


The ID4 would be a good option as would the EV6, tho they push your budget a bit. If EV6 cant be found then I would order an ID4 on the VW site and sign up for a local VW dealer for delivery. After you order they should contact you about the order and intro themselves. At that time let the internet sales director know you want to buy an ID4 sooner rather than later. If they are good they will find one for you.

We did that and our dealer came up with several used ID4 models over a 1 month period to buy. None came with the tax credit which was a non-starter for us. They even offered their demo to us after a month, but by then we already bought the EV6.

The deposit is $100.00 and fully refundable. If you wanted to go through with the order you will pay another $400.00 deposit once its ready to build, which now is months away. When the car arrives you can buy it or refuse it and get your full $500.00 back. Its a low entry into an ID4 if thats what you want, but more importantly the dealer will do more to find a new/used ID4--people do cancel their order when the car comes in and the dealer sell to people on their list.

Just an option. We are ordering an ID.Buzz which will be introduced today. They are likely delivering in late 2023 or early 2024 in USA, but we will drive teh EV6 until then.
 
I’m a couple of months in to my ‘22 Kia Niro EV lease and really loving the car for the most part. One of the things that sold me was adaptive cruise as standard.

I used the guy that posts here: https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/kia-...-das-315-tax-all-ev6-in-stock-msrp/222824/516 which is obviously not in your neck of the woods but he’s super responsive and friendly and maybe would have some tips for you, maybe there’s somebody doing the same kind of thing in your area.
 
As a former model S owner, a couple thoughts…. Probably the biggest and safest, and some have free charging for travels. My’13 P85 had great range and amazing power but was pre-autopilot and just dumb cruise. Also needs 4G upgrade, but was only $30k. Don’t buy salvage titles. Cars that have had stuff replaced like drive motors and door handles are likely problem free now, forget the warranty don’t need. Miles don’t matter either, bought mine @ over 100k, no problem. Mine didn’t have cold weather package so wet braking was awful, became standard later, like some ‘14s I think, had to upgrade my ‘13 brakes to fix. Why sell? Upgraded to a pricey new Y, highly recommend, 3 too low for me.
 
Robert Brown said:
I'm in NC, so the new Hyundai/Kias are not even sold here.
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We were in the same position. After months of research, we had to drive 250 miles to Colorado Springs just to test drive a Niro EV, but we wound up buying one and we love it!

Tesla lost the race due to ineligibility for the tax incentive and reports of long waiting lists for repairs.
The Bolt and the Kona EV were eliminated due to LP's faulty battery issue. (Kia EV batteries are made by a different manufacturer)
The VW ID4 was out because the driver was forced to do everything via the touchscreen (The Niro EV has lots of buttons and dials so you have a choice.)
 
For me, ID.4 without question.

For context, I've had an original Bolt and a Kona, and seriously "wanted" a Model 3/Y before I test drove one, and before I test drove the EUV, the Mach-E, and the ID.4.

For me, the Tesla simply wasn't comfortable. (I've also had a couple of taxi rides in the rear of one and had severe back pain simply as a result.) I also don't really need a buckaroo launch time etc.

The ID.4 is a well-equipped serene vehicle that does what I wanted it to. Its controls are a little quirky (as I've said in similar threads, it's like VW invited out the 1980's Citroën design team for one last party), but even though they're mostly electronic they work well enough. I'd guess that as a family vehicle, especially with children in the back, it would be a great choice. It feels like it aims to be a practical car first, and an EV second — again as I've put it elsewhere, "An EV for non-EV drivers" (and that's a Good Thing).

In terms of purchase, VW makes it fairly easy to do most of the work online if you want to avoid the hassle of haggle, and despite advertised lead times for orders there often seem to be some available on a lot (I got mine "same day" — after having spent a long time over the preceding couple of weeks test-driving one).

In terms of access to fast-charging, Tesla probably still has the edge — there aren't that many EA chargers in NC yet:
https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger/
so fewer opportunities to charge for free; there are some from evGo as well
https://www.evgo.com/find-a-charger/
But unless you're anticipating frequent 200+ mile journeys I doubt it'll be much of an issue anyway.
 
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