Does Electrify America have a heat problem ?

[regularevdad]

It's great to learn about EA expanding the network over the next few years - they have done a lot already. However, I want to raise an issue - this all comes from a 400 mile trip this weekend, where the charging at 4 sites, and 5 heads, come not be more different - I put all the data into this video, and would welcome your feedback, knowledge, and experience

.

Thanks

 

[ericy]

I can give my own two cents.

The EA chargers have cooling built into the cables - circulating a fluid of some sort (probably glycol-based). My hypothesis is that if this cooling system fails for some reason, then charging is limited to much lower power levels. I was once at a charger near Philly - there was a repair tech working on the cabinet next to me, and I overheard him on the phone talking about problems with the cable cooling, but I don't know how that charger behaved before the tech got there.

It is also possible that the cooling system is just overwhelmed in this kind of heat, and isn't able to keep the coolant at a temperature where the charger can operate at full power. But that's also a guess. Some people have suggested that a canopy over the chargers would be welcome - certainly it would be better if you could be in the shade while charging, but if the charger were overwhelmed by the heat, a canopy might help somewhat.

I wish that EA provided additional information on their screens for us data nerds so we could see how the charging power is determined at any given instant. I get that average people are confused by numbers, but the screen is currently kind of dumbed down, and most of the time it is good enough. But it really tells you next to nothing beyond the basics. So your only option is to try a different charger or suck it up and take whatever power you are getting from the one you are already on.

It doesn't help for this kind of trip, of course, but I had a strategy that I developed when I had the Kona was to charge 1st thing in the morning in the summer when temperatures were coolest. And as a bonus, I am not stuck standing out in the blazing heat trying to get the charger to work. For your trip, your 1st charge seemed normal enough, and then it went downhill from there.

This (in part) is why I think in the long term, switching to 800V charging infrastructure is probably in the cards. For a given power level, the cable current is cut in half, and the need for cable cooling is significantly reduced.

 

[ericy]

And right after I posted this, I thought of something else.

The cable cooling system must have something like an AC compressor that chills the fluid, and it must have a vent on the side somewhere that the excess heat can be expelled. I wonder of one can look for such a vent with really hot air being exhausted, and hold a temperature sensor or thermometer up there to see if this is the case.

And if all of this turns out to be true, one could check for failed cable cooling just by holding your hand over the vent to see if really hot air is being expelled or not.

 

[bwilson4web]

I wish that EA provided additional information on their screens for us data nerds so we could see how the charging power is determined at any given instant.

IMHO, the vehicle should have a 'logging' function that can display the protocol transactions with ANY charger. Then the owner will have the data necessary to fault-isolate any problem. The owner paid for the car, give us the diagnostic information needed to keep it working.

Bob Wilson

 

[regularevdad]

Took me a while to respond to this, i had to unearth the video I saw it on. Even on the V3 chargers, Kyle from Out of Spec was wrapping a wet rag to the charging head. So I am thinking, that the glycol is cooling the cable - but not the head in its entirety. On all occasions, I could hear the cooling system going in the charger. And long term yes, but thats going to be very long term i fear.

 

[regularevdad]

When I do my roadtrip to Port Angeles in a few weeks, I will have a better "rag" situation for testing.

 

[ericy]

Took me a while to respond to this, i had to unearth the video I saw it on. Even on the V3 chargers, Kyle from Out of Spec was wrapping a wet rag to the charging head. So I am thinking, that the glycol is cooling the cable - but not the head in its entirety. On all occasions, I could hear the cooling system going in the charger. And long term yes, but thats going to be very long term i fear.

From the Tesla perspective, they must have a temperature sensor in the head. It is unclear what the EA chargers have. But I guess it is worth a shot.

Look to see if hot air is blowing out the side of the cabinet while charging.

I would test some of these myself, but the nearest EA charger is 90 miles away.

 

[bwilson4web]

I would test some of these myself, but the nearest EA charger is 90 miles away.

I understand there are three makes of EA chargers at probably different revision and manufacture levels. An interesting problem, not one I'll be pursuing. Worse, the CCS-1 vehicles have a lot of variability too!

If someone had a tap on the CCS-1 control port and a system to monitor and record the traffic, it might be possible to fault-isolate which side is not working correctly.

Bob Wilson

 

[ericy]

I understand there are three makes of EA chargers at probably different revision and manufacture levels. An interesting problem, not one I'll be pursuing. Worse, the CCS-1 vehicles have a lot of variability too!

There used to be 4, but one of them turned out to be really problematic, and I believe they swapped them all out. Around here, mostly ABB or Signet.

There is some variability in the vehicles, but EA has a testing lab where manufacturers are encouraged to bring pre-production vehicles for testing.

 

[hobbit]

Warm air generally blows out of the cabinet anyway, whether it's the one at the head or the big
box back in the enclosure in some setups ... the DC supply isn't 100% efficient, its losses have
to go somewhere. Even 95% efficient delivery of, say, 80 kW leaves 4 kW needing to be removed.
That could brew a lot of coffee.

_H*

 

[FloridaSun]

Heat seems to be a big issue with all but Tesla Superchargers.. We have tons of 50kw chargers around town and in winter, they are very reliable but once you use them early afternoon in summer, they shut down and you have to reconnect and sometimes, they are broken for weeks at a time until they are fixed.. They only break during summer.. The problem is that they are not covered and many of them are sitting in the afternoon sun and they overheat.. They don't have active cooling, just a fan.. This is an issue.. I don't know how Tesla does it but they don't seem to have that issue..

 

[bwilson4web]

My understanding is Tesla is repurposing Model S, power electronics in their Superchargers.

Bob Wilson

 

[ericy]

Heat seems to be a big issue with all but Tesla Superchargers.. We have tons of 50kw chargers around town and in winter, they are very reliable but once you use them early afternoon in summer, they shut down and you have to reconnect and sometimes, they are broken for weeks at a time until they are fixed.. They only break during summer.. The problem is that they are not covered and many of them are sitting in the afternoon sun and they overheat.. They don't have active cooling, just a fan.. This is an issue.. I don't know how Tesla does it but they don't seem to have that issue..

It could also depend on how many people are using the charger - if it is busy, it just never gets a chance to cool down until the sun goes down and people stop using it.

The ABB chargers have cooled cables, but according to the datasheet, the cooling is apparently just heat transfer, and no refrigerant is used:
https://new.abb.com/ev-charging/products/car-charging/high-power-charging

This all reminds me of rapidgate with the Nissan Leaf...

 

[FloridaSun]

It could also depend on how many people are using the charger - if it is busy, it just never gets a chance to cool down until the sun goes down and people stop using it.

The ABB chargers have cooled cables, but according to the datasheet, the cooling is apparently just heat transfer, and no refrigerant is used:
https://new.abb.com/ev-charging/products/car-charging/high-power-charging

View attachment 12758

This all reminds me of rapidgate with the Nissan Leaf...

Active cooling is needed.. Virtually all busy CCS chargers fail in the mid day heat in warm climates.. I just charged in 97 degree heat at Kingsville Supercharger and got 144 kw on a 150kw V2 Supercharger.