You should read this thread and some of the Price Paid thread.
https://insideevsforum.com/communit...ase-including-fed-tax-credit.7878/#post-88619
Clarity rebates/incentives for 2020
- Thread starter thealimo110
- Start date
- Replies 46
- Views 14K
You should read this thread and some of the Price Paid thread.
https://insideevsforum.com/communit...ase-including-fed-tax-credit.7878/#post-88619
When you talked to "the dealer", who specifically did you talk to? A a salesperson? Sales Manager? F&I?
The latter is likely the best source, but unless they have leased a bunch of vehicles (and cared enough to look closely at the lease docs) that qualify for the Tax Credit, even they may not know.
The lease offer on Honda's website for the Clarity Plug-In for $389/mo with $2,999 due at signing does include a cap cost reduction of ~4K that is likely from the Tax Credit. Finance companies will also sometimes use the Tax Credit to "buy down" the Money Factor or in other ways that will result in a lower payment.
"Only for residents of the following ZEV States: CA, CT, ME, MD, MA, NJ, NY, OR, RI, VT
Closed-end lease for 2019 Clarity Plug-In Hybrid Continuously Variable Transmission available through 01/06/2020, to approved lessees by Honda Financial Services. MSRP $34,330.00 (includes destination; excludes tax, title, license, registration, options, insurance). Actual net capitalized cost $27,740.62. Total monthly payments $14,004.00. Option to purchase at lease end $14,761.90. Lessee responsible for maintenance, excessive wear/tear and up to 20¢/mi. over 12,000 miles/year. Dealer participation may affect actual payment. Dealer sets actual prices. See participating dealers for details."
Closed-end lease for 2019 Clarity Plug-In Hybrid Continuously Variable Transmission available through 01/06/2020, to approved lessees by Honda Financial Services. MSRP $34,330.00 (includes destination; excludes tax, title, license, registration, options, insurance). Actual net capitalized cost $27,740.62. Total monthly payments $14,004.00. Option to purchase at lease end $14,761.90. Lessee responsible for maintenance, excessive wear/tear and up to 20¢/mi. over 12,000 miles/year. Dealer participation may affect actual payment. Dealer sets actual prices. See participating dealers for details."
Both the manufacturer and the dealer get the benefit of the Tax Credit as it is included in the selling price of the car, but neither directly receive it. The finance company gets the credit, and while they are most often a division of the manufacturer (or wholly owned subsidiary), you are not obligated to finance/lease thru them (but often it is a condition of getting some of the factory incentives).
4sallypat
Active Member
Based on @DucRider post, the net cap cost number seems to indicate that the lease does include a cap cost reduction of about $6,000 which is very good.
Then the dealer will also kick in their discount, further reducing the net cap cost.
Granted, back in 2018, when I got a phenomenal deal now that I have something to compare: $7600 Honda incentive + $2400 dealer discount + $500 CA State employee discount = $285/month lease for 3 years and then after that, I would pay off the balance of $14,400 to own the car which I will do because it's the best Honda I have had!
$2,610 of the down payment is applied as a cap cost ($2,999 - $389 first months payment). MSRP less net cap cost = $6,589. Less the $2,610 portion of the down = $3,979. Would need to see an actual contract for exact details
I know that Nissan is doing this on Leaf. It would be really frustrating if Honda doesn't.
https://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/the-ins-and-outs-of-electric-vehicle-tax-credits.html
If you are leasing the vehicle, the tax credit goes to the manufacturer that's offering the lease, not you. The carmaker will likely factor the credit into the cost of the lease to lower your monthly payment, but it isn't mandatory.
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/how-does-the-electric-car-tax-credit-work
The incentive belongs to vehicle title holder, so if you lease a Bolt or Fiat 500e, the company you leased the car from will claim the credit, not you.
thealimo110
New Member
I talked to a salesperson or sales manager on the phone. I'm aware the finance company gets the credit but I guess my question was more regarding why is it that others (VW, Nissan, etc.) pass the credit into the lease but Honda doesn't? But you addressed this question, so thanks for your help with that.
Honda has given the full credit (plus some factory $$$) in the past, but apparently don't feel they need to move a bunch of Clarity's at this time. Why could be be any number of factors but would be pure speculation.
4sallypat
Active Member
Looking back:
Seems like Honda & Honda Financial likes to play the numbers game for their "marketing" of the Clarity.
Should be an interesting 2020 year ??
- In 2018, the Clarity was heavily incentivized for leases ($7000-$8400 cap cost reductions) but the finance/cash price was only $1000 off by Honda. There were other state specific discounts that also made the 2018 Clarity a very good buy (ZEV states, DFLC, NYS tax credit, Northeast state incentives, etc).
- Then in 2019 the leases became awful with no incentives however the finance/cash purchase discount was $4,000-$6,000 off MSRP through the year. And then Honda started to sell the Clarity only in CA which restricted sales overall.
Seems like Honda & Honda Financial likes to play the numbers game for their "marketing" of the Clarity.
Should be an interesting 2020 year ??
I see the California $4000 is continued to 3/2/20.
At least when I was shopping in early 2019 there were some good Honda lease offers that equated to a capital cost reduction around $7500 in lieu of the tax credit (my notes have $34295 MSRP, $2999 down, $23848 cap cost, $13700 residual -- that might have been for a 2018 model but was in March 2019) and because of the way CA sales tax works on leases might have been a little cheaper than purchasing outright.
That didn't include the $6000 (at the time) incentive and ~$2000 additional common markdown though, and I dropped the lease idea before finding out if they'd similarly reduce the cap cost after negotiating a lower MSRP.
It does look like the current lease offer in CA is only a $3500 cap cost reduction, ($34355 MSRP, $2999 down, $27824 cap cost) so Honda is keeping the other $4000 and it would be hard to make a lease pen out better unless you can't take the $7500 deduction. And that still doesn't take into account the $4000 purchase incentive that they might or might not reduce the cap cost further for.
2020 Clarity PHEV announced. Only change appears to be pedestrian warnIng system.
https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-a...ellent-driving-range-and-fuel-economy-ratings
https://hondanews.com/en-US/honda-a...ellent-driving-range-and-fuel-economy-ratings
The Honda website doesn't list the 2020 Clarity PHEV as a build your own option yet.
" New for the 2020 model year is an updated Acoustic Vehicle Alert System (AVAS) that functions whenever the car is operating at low speeds on electric power only (unless in Park), enhancing awareness for pedestrians, bicyclists and other road users."
Does this mean that it doesn't imitate a pipe organ anymore? I wonder what it sounds like?
" New for the 2020 model year is an updated Acoustic Vehicle Alert System (AVAS) that functions whenever the car is operating at low speeds on electric power only (unless in Park), enhancing awareness for pedestrians, bicyclists and other road users."
Does this mean that it doesn't imitate a pipe organ anymore? I wonder what it sounds like?
Last edited:
> New for the 2020 model year is an updated Acoustic Vehicle Alert System (AVAS) that
> functions whenever the car is operating at low speeds on electric power only (unless in
> Park), enhancing awareness for pedestrians, bicyclists and other road users.
So the only difference is that when the ICE is running the 2020 Acoustic Vehicle Alert System is silent? Is that some kind of admission that the Clarity PHEV's ICE is so raucous that no additional acoustic warning is necessary? Or did US Clarity owners complain too much that the Canadian Clarity owners were gloating about their cars including an "off" switch for the AVAS?
> Total system output of the Clarity Plug-in Hybrid’s two-motor hybrid powertrain is 212 horsepower.
Still no explanation regarding their 212 horsepower claim after they specify that the traction motor tops out at 181 horsepower.
The sound must meet very specific rules starting in 2020, and likely the "choir boys" do not qualify. Part of the rules:
In the final rule, the agency reduced the number of one-third octave bands for which vehicles must meet minimum sound pressure level requirements. The NPRM proposed that vehicles would have to emit sound meeting minimum requirements in eight one-third octave bands. In the final rule, hybrid and electric vehicles will instead have to meet a requirement based on sound level in either two or four one-third octave bands at the vehicle manufacturer's option, and a vehicle may alternate between meeting the 2-band and 4-band specifications depending on test speed. Vehicles complying with the 4-band option must meet minimum sound pressure levels in any four non-adjacent one-third octave bands between 315 Hz and 5000 Hz, including the one-third octave bands between 630 Hz and 1600 Hz (these bands were excluded in the NPRM). Vehicles complying with the 2-band option must meet minimum sound pressure levels in two non-adjacent one-third octave bands between 315 Hz and 3150 Hz, with one band below 1000 Hz and the other band at or above 1000 Hz. The two bands used to meet the 2-band option also must meet a minimum band sum level.
Under the 4-band compliance option, the minimum sound levels for each band are slightly lower than the values proposed in the NPRM, and the overall sound pressure of sounds meeting the 4-band option will be similar to those meeting the proposed eight-band requirements in the NPRM. Under the 2-band compliance option, the minimum sound requirements for each band are lower than those of the proposed eight-band requirements for the low and mid frequency bands (315 Hz through 3,150 Hz; the 4,000 Hz and 5,000 Hz bands are not included for the purpose of determining compliance with the 2-band requirement.) Neither the 4-band compliance option nor the 2-band compliance option include requirements for tones or broadband content that were contained in the NPRM.
For both the 2-band and 4-band compliance options, the final rule expands the range of acceptable one-third octave bands to include those between 630 Hz and 1600 Hz (these bands were excluded in the NPRM). It also reflects an across-the-board reduction in the minimum levels of 4 dB(A) to account for measurement variability which the agency's development of test procedures indicated was needed.
Under the 4-band compliance option, the minimum sound levels for each band are slightly lower than the values proposed in the NPRM, and the overall sound pressure of sounds meeting the 4-band option will be similar to those meeting the proposed eight-band requirements in the NPRM. Under the 2-band compliance option, the minimum sound requirements for each band are lower than those of the proposed eight-band requirements for the low and mid frequency bands (315 Hz through 3,150 Hz; the 4,000 Hz and 5,000 Hz bands are not included for the purpose of determining compliance with the 2-band requirement.) Neither the 4-band compliance option nor the 2-band compliance option include requirements for tones or broadband content that were contained in the NPRM.
For both the 2-band and 4-band compliance options, the final rule expands the range of acceptable one-third octave bands to include those between 630 Hz and 1600 Hz (these bands were excluded in the NPRM). It also reflects an across-the-board reduction in the minimum levels of 4 dB(A) to account for measurement variability which the agency's development of test procedures indicated was needed.
We’re you really expecting any significant changes?
Not certain how yours works, but my ICE is rarely on at low speeds, even in HV mode.
Do you believe that Honda actually listens to owners concerns?
They could probably make the Advanced Idiot Warning System sounds like a clattering diesel or a locomotive and most phone wielding, ear-budded morons still wouldn’t even consider not walking in front of a car.
I was expecting zero changes. @DucRider describes changes in the sound of the AVAS that Honda doesn't mention. All the press-release says is that it now operates only in EV Drive mode.
If I punch the HV button, my ICE comes on. And, as many report on this forum, the ICE comes on in response to regen braking when the battery is fully charged, regardless of speed.
I have seen no evidence that Honda listens to owners' concerns. The only direct access Clarity drivers have to Honda personnel is with the HondaLink team and we all know how well that's working out.
I live in a college town. Even bud-less morons walk in front of moving vehicles here.
I see no need to press the HV button while traveling at a low speed, such as a parking lot.
Additionally, I have not experienced the ICE coming on after a full charge under the following conditions: down a 600’ long driveway followed by steep downhill sections of 1/4-1/2 miles. The 1/2 mile segment is 8.8% average gradient. Or a more gradual 1/2 mile downhill with one or two stops. I’m sure it does happen. Not likely in a parking lot or congested area with pedestrians. Especially if a few miles have been burned to get there.
Let me come up with another scenario: There could be schoolkids crossing at the stop sign just down the hill from where the car was charged (I know, I know, schoolkids don't walk to school anymore). It's just not obvious to me why Honda would go to the trouble of changing the AVAS to go silent when the ICE is running.
Probably to strictly adhere to the new standards as the requirement is for the sound to be generated when the ICE is not running. Doesn't say it cannot be generated with the ICE running, but also does not specify that it can.
Honda petitioned for clarification of some rules, and changes were made to those pertinent sections when the deadline was extended from 2019 compliance to 2020.
A small sampling of what they get to sort thru (requirements change with speed, acceleration/deceleration, etc)
Select the two one-third octave bands, one below 1000 Hz and one at or above 1000 Hz, having the largest A-weighted SPL values within the range of 315 Hz up to 3150 Hz and that are non-adjacent to each other to evaluate according to S7.1.5(e)(ii), below. In the event that the pair of bands with the largest SPL values are the 800 Hz and 1000 Hz bands, then select both of the following pairs to evaluate according S7.1.5(e)(ii): The 800 Hz band along with the band having the second-largest A-weighted SPL value from the 1000 Hz and above bands; and, the 1000 Hz band along with the band having the second-largest A-weighted SPL value from the 800 Hz and below bands. At least one of the band pairs selected as specified in this paragraph shall meet the minimum requirements when evaluated according to S7.1.5(e)(ii)
Anyone with trouble sleeping can study all the requirements here:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/571.141