ClarityBill
Active Member
I had not thought about a display error, but the actual range had not dropped. That seems possible.
Clarity life after 50596 miles
- Thread starter Joseph Sauvignon
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- ev range
Perhaps research on finding an undetectable way to crash a battery would be in order. My last 1st-gen Insight's battery lasted two months beyond its 8-year warranty. My crying was so pitiful that Honda paid for the battery and I paid only for the labor. When that 3-year warranted Honda-reconditioned battery croaked 5 years later, I replaced it myself with a 3rd-party battery with all-new cells--so much easier than wrenching on rusty catalytic converters.
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Cash Traylor
Well-Known Member
@insightman I almost shudder to post this, as I get beat for it being sacrilege, but I fear a good number of Claritys (Clarities, uh any idea on how that is spelled, is this a species or a pronoun?) will not make it and warranties will be paid. I blame the dealership network for the PHEV issues. Honda did a good job on this car, and the HV pack, however unlike my experience with the Chevy dealerships concerning the Volts and Bolts, the Honda dealers were completely unprepared, some still are (especially in "non-ev states). We are only two years into an eight/ten year warranty, and there are already some outliers that have lost 10-15%. Oh, my - I'm going to get clobbered for saying that. I have heard (as we hear on the news all day now) that the loss curve will flatten out, and just drive and don't worry. People think I am worried and I am not, I am planning. I have NO worries with this car other than a fear of taking it in for service at my dealership....
I also understand how an 84S2P pack can behave in a dynamic load, and the failure contingencies likely built into the BMS (with 168 cells there are only a few options). However the modules are available, and I plan to get one in to test and take apart this summer. But between 348v and 294v there is a lot of energy and I am happy enough. I have a CAN sniffer now, and am going to hide it and take my car in for a "battery capacity" test on the i-HDS at the dealership. Well, once this crisis is over at least, they are not excepting non-critical maintenance work right now... I hope to grab the PIDs and interrogation stream for that readout so I can then do it myself. If this works I will post the results and the code to do it at home as well, without a $600 ODBII scanner. I have my doubts this will be easy though...
Cheers,
Cash
I also understand how an 84S2P pack can behave in a dynamic load, and the failure contingencies likely built into the BMS (with 168 cells there are only a few options). However the modules are available, and I plan to get one in to test and take apart this summer. But between 348v and 294v there is a lot of energy and I am happy enough. I have a CAN sniffer now, and am going to hide it and take my car in for a "battery capacity" test on the i-HDS at the dealership. Well, once this crisis is over at least, they are not excepting non-critical maintenance work right now... I hope to grab the PIDs and interrogation stream for that readout so I can then do it myself. If this works I will post the results and the code to do it at home as well, without a $600 ODBII scanner. I have my doubts this will be easy though...
Cheers,
Cash
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MrFixit
Well-Known Member
FWIW,
I am nearly certain that the Autel MX808 tool is currently the 'minimum' Autel product than can get the data that we want. You can get one for around $380. Still a lot of money, but not beyond some consideration.
I still think the $60 AP200 is capable of this, but the required software / firmware is lagging behind with NO indication as to if / when the relevant update will occur (details in another thread).
I suppose it would be possible to buy a MX808, use a CAN sniffer to capture the traffic from live-viewing the Electric Powertrain protocols, then use a BlueTooth sniffer to figure out how the AP200 communicates and write your own program to get the AP200 to do what is needed. This is a whole lot of reverse engineering and you could easily get stuck anywhere along the way and not reach the end of the rainbow. Just as hard as the approach Cash mentions (but without the need to spy at the dealer) !
I had an interesting experience with the AP200 around a month ago. There was an update and I was very hopeful. I installed the update (both firmware and software). I found out rather quickly that it didn't do what we need. I left the AP200 dongle installed thinking I may not be done 'playing'. When I drove somewhere the next day, I got a TPMS warning after maybe 30 miles. I checked the pressures (all just fine). I ran a TPMS calibration. After another 20 miles or-so, another TPMS warning. Again pressures all good. It occurred to me that the AP200 was still on the OBD2 port. I never had it connected via BlueTooth during this entire scenario so it should have been 'inactive', but I took it off, and have not had any problems since. Apparently it was doing something to interfere in a subtle way with the busses...
I am nearly certain that the Autel MX808 tool is currently the 'minimum' Autel product than can get the data that we want. You can get one for around $380. Still a lot of money, but not beyond some consideration.
I still think the $60 AP200 is capable of this, but the required software / firmware is lagging behind with NO indication as to if / when the relevant update will occur (details in another thread).
I suppose it would be possible to buy a MX808, use a CAN sniffer to capture the traffic from live-viewing the Electric Powertrain protocols, then use a BlueTooth sniffer to figure out how the AP200 communicates and write your own program to get the AP200 to do what is needed. This is a whole lot of reverse engineering and you could easily get stuck anywhere along the way and not reach the end of the rainbow. Just as hard as the approach Cash mentions (but without the need to spy at the dealer) !
I had an interesting experience with the AP200 around a month ago. There was an update and I was very hopeful. I installed the update (both firmware and software). I found out rather quickly that it didn't do what we need. I left the AP200 dongle installed thinking I may not be done 'playing'. When I drove somewhere the next day, I got a TPMS warning after maybe 30 miles. I checked the pressures (all just fine). I ran a TPMS calibration. After another 20 miles or-so, another TPMS warning. Again pressures all good. It occurred to me that the AP200 was still on the OBD2 port. I never had it connected via BlueTooth during this entire scenario so it should have been 'inactive', but I took it off, and have not had any problems since. Apparently it was doing something to interfere in a subtle way with the busses...
ClarityBill
Active Member
What evidence of a bad battery is there, besides the low EV range? After all the downplaying of EV range validity, I am surprised we don't have another answer.
Would you suggest the charger test we have been discussing? ...or just go pay the dealer for the battery test?
MrFixit
Well-Known Member
Yes, EV range gets downplayed, but... This seems extraordinarily low.
I have never heard of someone having only a 25 mile range when it is 70 degrees out. Many people are not very hands-on. Again, if it were me - I would disconnect the battery, probably do the charger test, I would also make sure that I am really only getting the 25 miles indicated. Particularly make sure this isn't just a one-time anomaly and it really is that low across multiple charges. At that point, I'm not sure what else it could be beyond the battery.
The OP is MIA !!. There is little point in further discussions without some additional feedback !
Cash Traylor
Well-Known Member
Captain's log, stardate: 042020+20days trapped in the Tholian Web, ship's stores at condition yellow... crew morale is good, but Bones is seeing signs of space fever. Spock reports that the holodeck is in need of service and updating, as the crew has gone through all available programs. Scotty just beamed a tribble into the girl's locker room out of boredom... Sulu and Checkov have begun taking target shots at asteroids, but turned it into a drinking game with Scotty's best Scotch, I fear tensions over this last stunt may get both beamed into an engine nacelle... I'm going to see if that green lady returned my text chat with those heart emojis - Kirk out.
With the OP, MIA, now I am just entertaining myself....
I have never been charged for a "battery test" just don't use those words when you go to the dealer. In every instance they assume a "battery test" is their load test of the 12V battery which is part of their multipoint inspection if part of another service, but a cost item if just asked for on its own. The "test" is them plugging the i-HDS into the OBD2 port and printing out the electrical powertrain status report. I have asked for this anytime I have had the car in for a service inspection (annual state inspection or maintenance minder) and there has been no charge (they are plugged in anyway). There is no point in testing more than every 6-12 months so it is likely not an issue, you just have to "remember" to ask for it as they do not volunteer it in my experience. Yes, EV Range or monitoring charge parameters is about the only "user" way to do it now. I am working on a way to do it with a $60 OBDII sniffer, that if you have not seen some of the other threads is used for comma.ai - it is called a panda. It is a device that is not "protocol restricted" and can communicate with all the CAN/FCAN/LIN/GMLAN com busses in the vehicle. However, I now think that the Clarity is not "broadcasting" the EV system status (it is for volts and amps) for capacity so it is an interrogation response. So I have to capture the "request" and then find the "answer" for this to work. However, once you know (and this is the Honda proprietary info that they sell and license to the other scantool companies) it would not be hard to just write a script that would pull that data out. So, basically creating a sub $100 tool that can do what the more expensive ones do. I have a $10 chinesium bluetooth OBDII scanner that I use for everything else I would really ever need so... However, MrFixit is right, $380 for the MX808 is not a bad deal and probably the best move if you are the "MrFixit-DIY" type. I am only pursuing this because I already have the panda for other purposes so am "swiss-army-knifing" it.
As to the OP answer, I would reboot the car by disconnected the negative on the 12v battery for 10 minutes. Make sure it is fully fueled and fully charged (HV) before doing this as it resets the coulomb counter and you end up with bad range training otherwise. Then go drive it to HV/ICE turn on full discharge. This is kinda like the advice to cycle your laptop or phone to re-calibrate the battery gauge. It is important to say here that I am not talking about "battery memory," as that does not exist in lithium chemistry cells. If you are old enough or in other fields that still use Nicad cells, cell voltage memory effects are real and exist in that type of cell, are less pronounced and thermally inverted in NiMh cells - but not a factor in our cars. This is only to reset the range counter calibration. It will not change it a great deal as the CMM has non-volatile memory for the pack parameters and in fact can only be re-calibrated by the i-HDS. However, it does reset the driver parameters so allows the system to "re-learn" predictive range estimates.
Of note, do not do this if you are due your state emissions inspection within a couple weeks, and rarely drive with the ICE on, as it clears a lot of codes required to pass the emissions test. You would have to drive around for a while (different speeds and conditions) to get those data points reset for the emissions code readiness readers to pass you (depending on your state requirements).
Cheers,
Cash
With the OP, MIA, now I am just entertaining myself....
I have never been charged for a "battery test" just don't use those words when you go to the dealer. In every instance they assume a "battery test" is their load test of the 12V battery which is part of their multipoint inspection if part of another service, but a cost item if just asked for on its own. The "test" is them plugging the i-HDS into the OBD2 port and printing out the electrical powertrain status report. I have asked for this anytime I have had the car in for a service inspection (annual state inspection or maintenance minder) and there has been no charge (they are plugged in anyway). There is no point in testing more than every 6-12 months so it is likely not an issue, you just have to "remember" to ask for it as they do not volunteer it in my experience. Yes, EV Range or monitoring charge parameters is about the only "user" way to do it now. I am working on a way to do it with a $60 OBDII sniffer, that if you have not seen some of the other threads is used for comma.ai - it is called a panda. It is a device that is not "protocol restricted" and can communicate with all the CAN/FCAN/LIN/GMLAN com busses in the vehicle. However, I now think that the Clarity is not "broadcasting" the EV system status (it is for volts and amps) for capacity so it is an interrogation response. So I have to capture the "request" and then find the "answer" for this to work. However, once you know (and this is the Honda proprietary info that they sell and license to the other scantool companies) it would not be hard to just write a script that would pull that data out. So, basically creating a sub $100 tool that can do what the more expensive ones do. I have a $10 chinesium bluetooth OBDII scanner that I use for everything else I would really ever need so... However, MrFixit is right, $380 for the MX808 is not a bad deal and probably the best move if you are the "MrFixit-DIY" type. I am only pursuing this because I already have the panda for other purposes so am "swiss-army-knifing" it.
As to the OP answer, I would reboot the car by disconnected the negative on the 12v battery for 10 minutes. Make sure it is fully fueled and fully charged (HV) before doing this as it resets the coulomb counter and you end up with bad range training otherwise. Then go drive it to HV/ICE turn on full discharge. This is kinda like the advice to cycle your laptop or phone to re-calibrate the battery gauge. It is important to say here that I am not talking about "battery memory," as that does not exist in lithium chemistry cells. If you are old enough or in other fields that still use Nicad cells, cell voltage memory effects are real and exist in that type of cell, are less pronounced and thermally inverted in NiMh cells - but not a factor in our cars. This is only to reset the range counter calibration. It will not change it a great deal as the CMM has non-volatile memory for the pack parameters and in fact can only be re-calibrated by the i-HDS. However, it does reset the driver parameters so allows the system to "re-learn" predictive range estimates.
Of note, do not do this if you are due your state emissions inspection within a couple weeks, and rarely drive with the ICE on, as it clears a lot of codes required to pass the emissions test. You would have to drive around for a while (different speeds and conditions) to get those data points reset for the emissions code readiness readers to pass you (depending on your state requirements).
Cheers,
Cash
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ClarityBill
Active Member
I am starting to wonder if he is using the heater in those chilly 50F mornings: We never did talk to him about heater use, just jumped on his bad battery bandwagon.
MrFixit
Well-Known Member
@Cash Traylor -
A question for you... Are the CAN messages largely plain text, or is it binary/encrypted?
If one were to 'sniff' the bus during an Electric Powertrain dump, are you likely to see all of the data, or would it be incomprehensible without decoding hexadecimal goblety-goop and knowing scale factors, etc?
A question for you... Are the CAN messages largely plain text, or is it binary/encrypted?
If one were to 'sniff' the bus during an Electric Powertrain dump, are you likely to see all of the data, or would it be incomprehensible without decoding hexadecimal goblety-goop and knowing scale factors, etc?
ClarityBill
Active Member
The EV range issue seems to be a universal question, so I think there is still room for discussion. My list of the top things that kill EV range would be:
1. Heater
2. Heater
3. Heater
... after that, there is room for discussion.
Seat heater
A/C
High beams
Aftermarket equipment (Stereo, fog lights, etc.)
Tire pressure and model
Roof rack or back rack
Additional weight in the car
Wheel bearings - I still think the noise can be ignored by the casual driver (My daughters). There seemed to be a significant number of wheel bearing failures on the Clarity model.
Brakes dragging - They don't smoke as much as they just smell... again, the voice of experience.
Battery failure - Seems like this is the first thing people think of, but it seems small impact in most cases.
Ray B
Active Member
Unless I misinterpreted the OP, we have two data points to work off of. The initial EV range @ 3 miles on the odometer and current EV range. We have no feedback on driving style, average speed or highway vs local roads ratio, topography, tires, etc. Which all have a big influence on range. Daily usage may have been constant or may have recently changed to result in a lower EV estimate. We also don't know if there are other aspects which are know to affect degradation (e.g. extended time at full charge at high ambient temperatures). Too many missing pieces.
Until we get more feedback from the OP I think we'll have to just speculate on his case or better yet continue to gather data from others until we get a clearer picture of Clarity's EV battery degradation.
Until we get more feedback from the OP I think we'll have to just speculate on his case or better yet continue to gather data from others until we get a clearer picture of Clarity's EV battery degradation.
Cash Traylor
Well-Known Member
@MrFixit You have to know the scale (or guess), and some of it is encoded, others are PID decoded strings. Nothing is really "plain text." Since I can mark the time of the request and the response, and get a copy of the readout - I can use that for interpolation. However, I have not done this yet, so you know, as they say - best laid plans of mice and _____.
https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/technical-articles/introduction-to-can-controller-area-network/
Cash
https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/technical-articles/introduction-to-can-controller-area-network/
Cash
ClarityBill
Active Member
I feel like 'we' may have done him a disservice by not pointing out some of the factors that may have contributed to his lost EV range, and not just focused on the battery health. I'm preparing for the next person that comes on the forum with the same complaint (seems frequent), and the time that my EV range starts to drop without my understanding.
OP could have done a series of top speed tests just prior to charging - that would certainly drop the EV range to a very low figure.
A single data point from a first time poster that then disappears is a bit suspicious.
If indeed the OP is consistently getting that low of a range due to battery degradation, they likely would qualify for a replacement battery (25/41 = 61%). Their assertion that "They'll only replace the battery/hybrid components when it's dead" is contrary to the published warranty info.
A single data point from a first time poster that then disappears is a bit suspicious.
If indeed the OP is consistently getting that low of a range due to battery degradation, they likely would qualify for a replacement battery (25/41 = 61%). Their assertion that "They'll only replace the battery/hybrid components when it's dead" is contrary to the published warranty info.
Who among us has owned a Clarity PHEV for 2+ years and put on more than 50K miles?
It’s possible that the owner is unaware of the factors that may affect EV range. What we do know is that the rest of us have very little information on the particulars.
They did say that they were planning to have the battery tested at the dealer. Perhaps that service is unavailable given the current circumstances. Patience grasshoppers, it could be a month or more before we hear back.
It’s possible that the owner is unaware of the factors that may affect EV range. What we do know is that the rest of us have very little information on the particulars.
They did say that they were planning to have the battery tested at the dealer. Perhaps that service is unavailable given the current circumstances. Patience grasshoppers, it could be a month or more before we hear back.
ClarityBill
Active Member
I am 17 months and 59,500 miles... and I have not seen 'any' battery degradation.
I am planning to do the charge test on mine, but I haven't had the opportunity yet.
Thanks. It may have just been a weak moment, but I thought I’d give the OP the benefit of the doubt that they might have a basic understanding of how the vehicle behaves after 2 years of ownership, even though they haven’t achieved “Active Member” status on this forum.
From now on, when a new member's first post is a complaint about EV range, we need to demand a valid phone number before we begin our intensive, expert speculation about the problem only to have the OP disappear without answering any of our questions. </sarcasm>