BEV (eco) vs HV, which one costs more money

[Landshark]

Charge overnight at lowest TOU, drive during the day, feed the house (at least partially) during evening peak (demand and $$) hours, then recharge later at night when TOU rates are lowest. They are never pulling from the grid in peak times, reducing overall demand and also paying for all the electricity they use only during the lowest cost times.

That may work for now. TOU plans have changed and will continue to change. They are less favorable now for those who have installed solar after 2016-17 than for those who installed panels before 2016.

Speculation is often provided about fabulous new battery technologies in the future, yet changing electricity costs and pricing structures are often ignored.

 

[rodeknyt]

That may work for now. TOU plans have changed and will continue to change. They are less favorable now for those who have installed solar after 2016-17 than for those who installed panels before 2016.

Speculation is often provided about fabulous new battery technologies in the future, yet changing electricity costs and pricing structures are often ignored.

And those nicer TOU plans that were grandfathered when the utilities changed the game (I'm on one) are coming to an end very soon.

 

[jdonalds]

We have a written 25 year agreement with the city stating that we will remain on the Net Metering plan.

For those who don't know Net Metering means the electric company will charge us X dollars for power we consume and will subtract from our electric bill X dollars for power our solar system provides back to the electric company. So the electric company acts like a battery where we can store power. The rate can change but not the net metering plan.

 

[Recoil45]

These types of statements usually are based on replacing the battery at the end of the warranty period, but not factoring in an engine replacement when it's warranty expires.

Almost correct. I don’t envision needing to replace the battery in an EV at 5-6 years old. But I certainly do between 10-12 years.

Engine replacements on a diesel truck or gas car is something that I have not encountered. I have never sold an old one with less than 180k and a few around 250k.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[PHEVDave]

Then, there is the, yet to be addressed, issue of a fuel tax equivalent on electricity used to operate a BEV on public roads. Other than a few states that have added a fee for registration, BEV owners aren’t contributing to the delinquency of our road maintenance system.

Illinois wanted to make BEV owners pay $1000/year for registration (good way to discourage people from buying BEVs) but they ended up jacking it up to ‘only’ $250.

That may be another good case for buying a PHEV instead of a BEV. Hopefully states would be reluctant to increase registration fees for cars that could still be operated 100% in HV mode and would still be paying their fair share in gas taxes.

 

[DucRider]

Good God! I’m not cherry picking squat. I’m comparing the efficiency of the vehicles when operated as EV’s.

How about just comparing them when operating under normal usage patterns, and not just a subset of typical conditions?

 

[DucRider]

Almost correct. I don’t envision needing to replace the battery in an EV at 5-6 years old. But I certainly do between 10-12 years

Is there some reason you believe the Clarity battery will perform worse than anything else out there?

 

[PHEVDave]

How about just comparing them when operating under normal usage patterns, and not just a subset of typical conditions?

Just an additional data point. The Clarity with an EV range of 48 miles could drive (48 x 365) 17,500 miles a year purely on EV only if you charge it up just once a day. So, at least in some cases (perhaps a majority), that could be ‘normal’ usage.

I don’t think anyone would doubt that a Tesla in EV only mode would be more efficient than a Clarity in EV/HV mode. But I would guess that the efficiency is pretty close when comparing them in EV mode. I am a relatively new owner of a Clarity. I only have about 1,200 miles on it so far. But my objective is to drive it primarily as an EV but falling back to HV once in a great while.

Another point is that the high end Clarity (Touring) costs about the same as the low end of the Tesla line. And considering that Teslas are kind off on the low end of reliability ratings, I could see where someone would decide to buy a Clarity PHEV instead of a Tesla BEV until such time as the BEVs come down in price some more and their reliability ratings come up a little more.

 

[Bender]

Another point is that the high end Clarity (Touring) costs about the same as the low end of the Tesla line.

Only on the surface. $37500 msrp - 7500 tax credit. If in one of the ZEV states (and the others don't matter since they don't ship them to them anymore), -$6500 Honda incentive. = $23500 for a Clarity Touring. Cheapest model 3 configuration looks like $39,200. Approximately double the price.

 

[Landshark]

How about just comparing them when operating under normal usage patterns, and not just a subset of typical conditions?

How do you think the rating of 31kWh/100 miles was determined for the Clarity PHEV?

How do you think the rating of 30kWh/100 miles was determined for the Clarity EV?

Answer: By driving as an EV.

So, how about comparing apples to apples, as you suggested earlier?

 

[Landshark]

Just an additional data point. The Clarity with an EV range of 48 miles could drive (48 x 365) 17,500 miles a year purely on EV only if you charge it up just once a day. So, at least in some cases (perhaps a majority), that could be ‘normal’ usage.

I’ll add to that data point. In 16 months, I’ve made at least 100 trips of 45-60+ miles on batteries alone. Those have been my “normal” commutes.

 

[Landshark]

Only on the surface. $37500 msrp - 7500 tax credit. If in one of the ZEV states (and the others don't matter since they don't ship them to them anymore), -$6500 Honda incentive. = $23500 for a Clarity Touring. Cheapest model 3 configuration looks like $39,200.

Yep. We got in at about that price.
$5000 Honda incentive.
$7500 Fed credit
$2500 Oregon State rebate

While the thread topic is the cost difference between operating in EV or HV, the total cost of ownership will be much greater for someone who buys a new Tesla 3 at ~$40K compared to someone who bought a new Clarity at $23,500.

A coworker just bought a 2 year old Tesla for $15K less than new. Some Clarity owners have sold their 2 year old car and bought a new one at a net cost that was the same as the sale price of the used car. It will probably take 8 years for our Clarity to depreciate $15K.

 

[PHEVDave]

Yep. We got in at about that price.
$5000 Honda incentive.
$7500 Fed credit
$2500 Oregon State rebate

...

A coworker just bought a 2 year old Tesla for $15K less than new. Some Clarity owners have sold their 2 year old car and bought a new one at a net cost that was the same as the sale price of the used car. It will probably take 8 years for our Clarity to depreciate $15K.

In fact, you might even be able to make a little money by buying a Clarity in a ZEV state with incentives, driving it for a year or two, and then selling it in a non-ZEV state where presumably the average price for the car would be a little higher.

 

[Landshark]

For those who don't know Net Metering means the electric company will charge us X dollars for power we consume and will subtract from our electric bill X dollars for power our solar system provides back to the electric company. So the electric company acts like a battery where we can store power.

We have net metering as well. In summer the panels create more electricity than we use. During those months the bill is for the fixed monthly charges only, about $12. The excess kWh’s are “banked” toward future consumption. Usually, by October we’ve used the credits.

I view the electric company “storing” the power slightly differently than you, but it’s essentially the same thing.

 

[jdonalds]

We have net metering as well. In summer the panels create more electricity than we use. During those months the bill is for the fixed monthly charges only, about $12. The excess kWh’s are “banked” toward future consumption. Usually, by October we’ve used the credits.

I view the electric company “storing” the power slightly differently than you, but it’s essentially the same thing.

Sounds the same to me. Our monthly "connect" fee is $15. The city tried to raise the connect fee to $40 and decrease the cost/kWh but the citizens complained so that didn't happen.

 

[Bender]

and then selling it in a non-ZEV state where presumably the average price for the car would be a little higher.

New costs more in non zev. But used also seems to cost less in nonzev. At least with what I've seen.