BEV (eco) vs HV, which one costs more money

[Jimmy Vo]

LOL, luckily I get a free charge from my company, luckily I got solar installed. If not, I don't save much on BEV only mode.
Just checked my PG&E for fun, it's $0.28/kwh. So to fill up full charge of the Clarity, it will cost $3.92, which will give you about 50 miles range.
The Clarity is so good with Hybrid (HV mode), a gallon of $3.47 might be able to take you to 50 miles too

So, if you have PG&E, and you don't have a free charge or solar, you might want to drive HV all the time
Tesla always claims you save a lot of money with BEV, not so sure with the gasoline price is so low, and the PG&E electricity is so high
Too me, if you don't have free charge, at least install solar, otherwise, you just give PG&E money instead of petroleum companies. The cost is about the same

 

[Bender]

Yes, the same here.

For me, local electric is 0.12/kwh. Comes out to about $0.04/mi.

Gas is under $2 locally (looks like ~$1.60 now...). $2 comes out to around 0.04/mi.

So, basically charging at home is about the same price as gas.

3rd party charging stations are absurd prices, looks like at least 2X normal electricity price or higher.

 

[glockgirl]

same here: chelco's last bill in dec cost me $.12/kwh, with price of gas @ 2.01, regular 87, it .03 cents cheaper to drive in hybrid mode then EV, but i don't put regulars gas in, i put ethanol free, 89 @ 2.59/g, so its still cheaper for me to drive in EV mode.
i have a few free plug in station near my commute/shopping area. i don't pay for charging it. its always cheaper to wait to get home and plug in.

 

[Landshark]

A number of owners, primarily on the east coast, who have high electricity rates and low cost gas, operate exclusively on gas and even use HV charge to charge the battery rather than shore power. Add the fact that cold weather impacts EV range much more than ICE range and the cost difference can be quite significant.

Installing solar isn’t cheap, doesn’t make much in winter and the federal incentives are set to expire at the end of the month.

$.28/kWh is borderline insane. Do they offer a Time if Use plan?

 

[Bender]

Installing solar isn’t cheap, doesn’t make much in winter and the federal incentives are set to expire at the end of the month.

The 30% through end of 2019 was reduced to 26% for 2020, and it reduces to 22% for 2021. So, it ends in just over 12 months.

That's the same phaseout schedule it's been all along. It does end at the end of 2021, unless there's some new legislation -- which might depend on the GA senate special elections.

 

[Jimmy Vo]

$.28/kWh is borderline insane. Do they offer a Time if Use plan?

They do, but it would not make much of the difference so I did not switch it. But it does not matter now, I installed solar already. Yes, it's expensive, but 26% off from Tax so it's ok.

 

[Landshark]

The 30% through end of 2019 was reduced to 26% for 2020, and it reduces to 22% for 2021. So, it ends in just over 12 months.

Thanks. Guess I got ahead of myself. That’s actually good news as I plan to install some on the motorhome next year. Yes, the credit applies.

We put it on the house in 2012. At that time all the incentives added up to nearly 70% of the cost.

 

[Allantheprinter]

The 30% through end of 2019 was reduced to 26% for 2020, and it reduces to 22% for 2021. So, it ends in just over 12 months.

That's the same phaseout schedule it's been all along. It does end at the end of 2021, unless there's some new legislation -- which might depend on the GA senate special elections.

The new stimulus package (that may or may not get signed) that just passed Congress extends the 26% rate for two more years.
Taken from the press release: "Under this legislation, the solar ITC will remain at 26% for projects that begin construction in 2021 and 2022, step down to 22% in 2023, and down to 10% in 2024 for commercial projects while the residential credit ends completely."

 

[Jimmy Vo]

@Landshark , my system produces 12,000 kw per year. Enough for house + EVs. Costs around $21,000. 26% off of that, not too bad. You don't have to deal with the electricity bill anymore. Basically I loan for 8 years, $230/month. It's about the same price I pay PG&E, but after 8 years when I pay off the loan, everything is free. Not to mention PG&E increases the price every year, 3 years from now, my electricity bill might be $280 . Also, the loan is based on $21,000, the 26% off will be cash in my pocket, I consider that bonus cash .But I have an advantage though, I live in California where we have a lot of sunshine, that's a big factor. You need sunshine to produce kw . You live in Alaska, good luck

 

[DucRider]

People often forget to factor in the cost of maintaining their ICE in cost/mi calculations. No oil changes, fuel or air filters, plugs, etc on a BEV.

 

[Bender]

People often forget to factor in the cost of maintaining their ICE in cost/mi calculations.

Should be minimal on many modern vehicles. Other vehicles could be higher and of course the more trips in to garages, the more opportunities for unnecessary upsell attempts for services that are not on the manufacturer schedule or warranted from inspection.
My 2010 Fusion hybrid (prior car), had only about $500 in maintenance over 115k mi/10 years. It would have needed about another $500-1000 to replace engine mounts, but that could go bad on EVs too.
Oil changes and tire rotations are cheap and usually at least 7.5k-10k mi in between. I paid $10-30 a year for tire rotate + oil change + fluids and inspection with mailed out coupons or "specials" on the webpages of local dealers. There were spark plugs and engine coolant at (80k?) that ran $300-400. Many other items are "life of vehicle" or 150-200k mi, like transmission fluid with sealed transmissions that are not supposed to be opened and even brake fluid in some designs.

The 1 year I owned the Honda Clarity, I paid $43 for the oil change/tire rotation A01 service from a dealer. (other dealer quotes in town ran up to $150 though... for an oil change...) From my research before purchasing, I was expecting much higher ongoing maintenance costs from the Clarity series hybrid vs the Ford Fusion parallel hybrid. Things such as brake fluid.

 

[craze1cars]

Yes this has been discussed here before. And this is exactly why my next PHEV or EV...likely will not be...and why my next new car will more likely be a conventional gasmobile.

And why EVs are gonna need quite a bit more time to really grab hold. Among other challenges, it seems to me the economies just aren’t quite there, given today’s gas prices.

I am quite certain my Clarity hasn’t saved me a single penny.

And most certainly this could change at any time...and most likely many Californians think I’m nuts. But there are 49 other states where EVs especially just make less sense for the masses...

 

[Bender]

Yes this has been discussed here before. And this is exactly why I next PHEV or EV...likely will not be...and why my next new car will likely be a conventional gasmobile.

And why EVs are gonna need quite a bit more time to really grab hold. Among other challenges, the economies just aren’t quite there given today’s gas prices.

I am quite certain my Clarity hasn’t saved me a single penny.

And most certainly this could change at any time...and most likely Californians think I’m nuts. But there are 49 other states where these cars just make less sense for the masses...

I wouldn't go that far, Clarity is the best value (out of 2) vehicles I've owned. It ran better than negative $6k operating costs for the 18 months I owned it, that's adding in the insurance coverage and all other expenses to the $9k more than I paid that insurance paid me. My previous vehicle cost me about $3500 a year or so all-in over the 10 years (~2k/yr depreciation), the Ford hybrid.

If the clarity would have been totaled 2 months ago it'd probably been $4k more value .

Tax credits/incentives do their job to help them for now. PHEV you get to choose gas or electric. Convenience and value when for day-to-day usage (home charging). There does seem to be a limited array of options for PHEV though... I need to pick my replacement vehicle next week.

 

[Landshark]

@Landshark , my system produces 12,000 kw per year. Enough for house + EVs. Costs around $21,000. 26% off of that, not too bad. You don't have to deal with the electricity bill anymore. Basically I loan for 8 years, $230/month. It's about the same price I pay PG&E, but after 8 years when I pay off the loan, everything is free. Not to mention PG&E increases the price every year, 3 years from now, my electricity bill might be $280 . Also, the loan is based on $21,000, the 26% off will be cash in my pocket, I consider that bonus cash .But I have an advantage though, I live in California where we have a lot of sunshine, that's a big factor. You need sunshine to produce kw . You live in Alaska, good luck

Perhaps you could shed some light on an article from Energytoolbase.com, that discusses the changes in the Investor Owned Utilities (IOU), Net Energy Metering (NEM) structure in California. Sorry, I’m incapable of linking the article.

IOU’s in California include:
PG&E
SCE
SDG&E

In a nutshell, home owners of solar installations placed in service after 2016-17, will eventually, soon, be required to be on a Time of Use rate plan. Conveniently, for the utilities, the lowest rates are during the hours when solar generation is highest. In other words, the solar panels will be offsetting the cheapest electricity and when the sun sets, you’ll be paying for the expensive electricity. They’ve devalued the benefit of the solar panels.

With NEM 1.0, solar generation offset kWh’s from the top of the bill.
NEM 2.0 changes that to the utility companies benefit.
They’re working on NEM 3.0.

With these new rate structures, your electricity in 8 years may be anything but free. And the $5460 “in your pocket” is borrowed money. You’ll be paying for it over the next 8 years.

 

[PHEVDave]

Yes this has been discussed here before. And this is exactly why my next PHEV or EV...likely will not be...and why my next new car will more likely be a conventional gasmobile.

And why EVs are gonna need quite a bit more time to really grab hold. Among other challenges, it seems to me the economies just aren’t quite there, given today’s gas prices.

I am quite certain my Clarity hasn’t saved me a single penny.

And most certainly this could change at any time...and most likely many Californians think I’m nuts. But there are 49 other states where EVs especially just make less sense for the masses...

It’s crazy that CA is probably the state with the highest density of hybrids, EVs, PHEVs, etc. but also has some of the highest prices for electricity in the country. My break even point for buying gasoline instead of charging up with electricity is somewhere around a dollar a gallon. But I’ve heard many in CA say that it’s a wash at almost three dollars a gallon. But I agree with you that these cars are not quite ready for prime time. It’s not the car’s fault. I think it’s mostly the misperception or lack of understanding by the population in general. I bought my Clarity in Grand Rapids MI and it was the only Clarity on the lot and the only Clarity they had ever had. Even though they were trying to make me think that I needed to make a decision to buy the car quickly because someone else would come along and buy it out from under me, I could tell they really just wanted to get rid of it for lack of interest.

 

[PHEVDave]

...In a nutshell, home owners of solar installations placed in service after 2016-17, will eventually, soon, be required to be on a Time of Use rate plan. Conveniently, for the utilities, the lowest rates are during the hours when solar generation is highest. In other words, the solar panels will be offsetting the cheapest electricity...

That’s interesting because here in Illinois the opposite is true. The lowest rates are in the middle of the night when solar generation is zero. The highest rates are generally in the afternoon around 4-5 PM which, in the summer, probably corresponds to the warmest part of the day when air conditioning is running the most.

 

[Allantheprinter]

PG& E rates in Northern California can work both ways - The EV rates are highest from 4 pm to 9 pm - when people are home, but solar panel output is low or non-existent. On the other hand, rates are lowest from midnight to 3 p.m., so it is relatively cheap to charge an EV overnight, but the payback for solar panels is also minimized.

There are also other time-of-use rates that have a higher off-peak rate and a lower and shorter peak rate - 5 pm to 8 pm. So, as a user, I end up trading-off between return on my solar panels vs. cost of charging my Clarity. For now, with minimal mileage under Covid, I've selected the higher off-peak rate to maximize my payback from solar panels.
@Landshark is right - the rates are being skewed more and more to undercut the payback from solar panels. Time-of-use billing is now required when you install solar panels, and while the payback is still there, it's getting harder and harder (read that as it takes more years to break even).

 

[The Gadgeteer]

I dream of a world where solar is so cheap and abundant that it makes the cost of electricity negligible. I believe that dream is possible today with today’s technology even if it is not practically possible.

 

[DucRider]

@Landshark is right - the rates are being skewed more and more to undercut the payback from solar panels. Time-of-use billing is now required when you install solar panels, and while the payback is still there, it's getting harder and harder (read that as it takes more years to break even).

The issue utilities in CA are having is that they have excess capacity from solar during the day. this has been become known as the "Duck Curve"

Demand drops drastically during the day.

And from residential customers with panels, they are required to purchase electricity from them at retail instead of wholesale (It is actually just "banked" against future use, but the end result is the same).

Batteries are one way that is being used to buffer solar generation. This can be done at both utility scale and by individual users (Power Wall, etc). Also where we are starting to see repurposed EV batteries.

 

[Allantheprinter]

@DucRider wrote: "Batteries are one way that is being used to buffer solar generation. This can be done at both utility scale and by individual users (Power Wall, etc). Also where we are starting to see repurposed EV batteries."

"Vehicle to grid" may be the wave of the future. Unfortunately, I don't see how a vehicle which has been driven home from work at 5 pm, and whose battery is nearly exhausted, helps the grid during the peak 4 to 9 pm period.
I did see a discussion somewhere (I can't find it now) of someone who constructed a V2G system for his Clarity - drawing power through the 12v system to a transformer and then into the inverter from his solar panels. Interesting, but probably not real practical.