Battery Swapping is key for cold weather

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bwilson4web said:
Let's take a look at a practical version of swappable batteries. I use 80VDC Greenworks batteries:
View attachment 22159
The extended run battery, 288 Wh, is on the left. The smaller 144 Wh batteries are on the right. But the right most one failed.

The problem is one or more cells have started corroding:
View attachment 22160
These are 18650 cells that I could buy on eBay for ~$40. Add to that a battery tab, spot welder, and a couple of hours and the 144 Wh battery would recturn to service.

Instead, I bought a new, 21700 cell, 288 Wh battery, $400, that is the same size as the original, small 144 Wh battery packs. Lighter than the large, extended run battery, it makes a lot of sense over several years of operation.

Fitting the 21700 cells in the same dimensions as the original 18650 cells is a neat trick. But 18650 cell chemistry has improved. The originals appear to be 2500 ma cells and I see 3000-3500 ma cells available. It makes more sense to let battery technology continue to improve and replace the failed 18650 with higher energy density, LiON cells within a year. So how does this relate to 'battery swapping?'

Notice the overhead of swappable battery packs. This adds weight and non-payload volume to the vehicle. These parasitic loads on the EV reduces their range and efficiency. They carry around extra structure. In contrast, the structural battery pack weights only as much as the minimum number of parts needed.

So I add swappable battery packs to hydrogen fool cells as another, dead-end technology. In PowerPoint or user forums, sounds GREAT. In real engineering, something less.

Bob Wilson
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Have you seen Chris "Fix" upgrade cells in a Prius. similar , no sense in carrying around old technolgy, he upgraded/swapped the pack to new higher density cells ..using same battery pack case ..hands down best video for someoen wanting/needing to repplace dead /cell/pack on a prius




This all plays out with Battery swapping for the non DIY people.most of us. When NIO upgrades to newer battery cell technology with better ability to handles heat/cold , increased density. lighter weight all increase in range and implements it there is no need top buy a new EV ..you have immediate access via their battery swap stations
 
So here we are again with backups at the DCFC chargers and Uber/taxi drivers . This time New York
Tesla Drivers Wait 90 Minutes At This New York City Supercharger
NYC's approach to incentivizing EVs for Uber and Lyft drivers faces unintended consequences.

long-line-at-tesla-supercharger-in-brooklyn.jpg



So battery swapping for fleets first would be huge towards taking pressure off the DCFC chargers .
 
Puppethead said:
What works in China may not work in the United States. I see Nio is beginning some European locations, it'll be instructive to see how successful that is.
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Chinas is actually worse than United states as far as population density . Imagine trying to charge in Beijing

Is Beijing bigger than NYC?

In terms of total population, New York City is about 40% of the size of Beijing, with a population of 8.4 million versus Beijing's roughly 21 million. Beijing's richest resident is Zhang Yiming, the founder of TikTok parent company ByteDance, who's worth $35.6 billion

Also China has roughly 10 million evs already on the road compared to 2 million in the USA

When it comes to the electric vehicle (EV) market, China is leading the charge ahead of traditional automotive juggernauts like Germany and Japan. China’s new EV sales increased by 82% in 2022, accounting for nearly 60% of global EV purchases. This greatly surpasses that of the U.S., Norway, and other Scandinavian nations that were early adopters of EVs.


And think about this Over 300 Comapnies make electric vehicles in China !!


How China’s EV Boom Caught Western Car Companies Asleep at the Wheel
Auto execs in the US, Europe, and Japan never thought Chinese EVs were a threat. Now they’re coming to wipe the floor with their Western counterparts.

 
One last thing on this is that there is an attendant on duty , so whie the swap is automated if for whatever reason there is a glith the attendeat can restart it AND REboot the DCFC chargers that are also installed at the swap stations.

Nothing more frustrating that being at a charger that just needs as a simple reboot and having to call support and the process takes 10-15 minutes just to do a reboot. That would be awesome to have an attendant just reboot.
 
OneEV said:
One last thing on this is that there is an attendant on duty , so whie the swap is automated if for whatever reason there is a glith the attendeat can restart it AND REboot the DCFC chargers that are also installed at the swap stations.

Nothing more frustrating that being at a charger that just needs as a simple reboot and having to call support and the process takes 10-15 minutes just to do a reboot. That would be awesome to have an attendant just reboot.
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I wonder why every charging station location doesn't have an attendant?
 
This may be premature:

Nio aims to enter U.S. market by 2025 with China-made premium EVs​


I had gone to the EPA site to see the Nio EV performance specs but there was no "Nio". So Google turned up this gem.

Ok, what is Nio stock doing?
upload_2024-1-22_13-31-16.webp


Expanding into the North American markets will require 'swapping stations' which means stock sales and/or loans. Swapping stations look to be at least an order of magnitude more expensive to install than a typical 8-12, Tesla SuperCharger. But unlike the SuperChargers, swapping stations are limited to just Nio vehicles.

So we are faced with:
  • Nio EV sales in the USA won't start until 2025, 12-24 months away.
  • Substantial capital required to build a network of swapping stations/dealerships.
  • Swapping stations unable to service other EVs.
Like hydrogen fuel cells, this is a technology that faces significant economic and technical challenges. Perhaps a better approach might be EV delivery vehicles with a central service center or offer warehouse fork lifts. Heck, perhaps their battery packs could become home, emergency power storage or power storage for regular CCS-1 and SuperCharger stations.

Bob Wilson
 
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insightman said:
I wonder why every charging station location doesn't have an attendant?
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just costs , can you imagine having attendedants just standing at the tens of thousands of charging locations !(for DCFC I still dont understand why the7y simply dont add a reboot button..make everyones experiance so much better)

With a busy Swap station ...even if tens of thousands it makes sense.. you pay a premium for battery swapping instead of charging. that premium covers the attendant as well as the equipment.
 
bwilson4web said:
This may be premature:

Nio aims to enter U.S. market by 2025 with China-made premium EVs​


I had gone to the EPA site to see the Nio EV performance specs but there was no "Nio". So Google turned up this gem.

Ok, what is Nio stock doing?
View attachment 22161

Expanding into the North American markets will require 'swapping stations' which means stock sales and/or loans. Swapping stations look to be at least an order of magnitude more expensive to install than a typical 8-12, Tesla SuperCharger. But unlike the SuperChargers, swapping stations are limited to just Nio vehicles.

So we are faced with:
  • Nio EV sales in the USA won't start until 2025, 12-24 months away.
  • Substantial capital required to build a network of swapping stations/dealerships.
  • Swapping stations unable to service other EVs.
Like hydrogen fuel cells, this is a technology that faces significant economic and technical challenges. Perhaps a better approach might be EV delivery vehicles with a central service center or offer warehouse fork lifts. Heck, perhaps their battery packs could become home, emergency power storage or power storage for regular CCS-1 and SuperCharger stations.

Bob Wilson
Click to expand...
Wem have AMPLE battery swapping as well . Ample has been around a few years. they are working with Uber in San Fransico. They have like 5 swaps stations

Ample is also working with Fisker, GM, Stellantis etc..

That said ..NIO is like Tesla is to charging ..Tesla dominates as the better charging experiance and NIO dominates as the battery swapping.

BTW.. Here's NIO in the United States.. I love that orange and the interior fantastic.




As far as the inevitable Politics of purchasing a car from china , we already buy everything from China I'd buy a chinese car. Not a big deal to me as long as the quality is good.

But yes we are going to see the same nonsense we seen in the 1960's,70's and 80's as Japan started imports in the USA. I was part of the muscle car generation and no way in H word we buy a car from Japan.. well until we'd get into a buddys datsun pickup and think it was the greast thibn to sliced bread. Today no one thinks twice about Toyota or any other Japanese car brands.. we just want quality and for a fair price.

I'd much rather have trade back and forth with China than missles.. I want them to NEED us. Riusians dont have any money, so they can pretend to be great friends with Russia but the reality is we are far more important to China than Russia is.
 
I wasn’t aware of them so I surveyed:
https://ample.com/product/

My 2019 Tesla Model 3 battery is down from ~55 kWh to ~47 kWh. How much will they charge me to replace the Tesla battery with theirs?

I also have a 2017 BMW i3. How much? How long will it take them to replace the OEM battery with theirs?

A major EV-1 failure is you could not buy it. So when the leases were up, GM crushed them. Do they lease the battery or can one buy one?

Bob Wilson
 
insightman said:
I wonder why every charging station location doesn't have an attendant?
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Likely because companies thought they could do it on the cheap since it's just an electrical outlet. But as the EV market matures the traditional fueling locations are starting to add EV charging, and those convenience stores are mostly attended.
 
Puppethead said:
Likely because companies thought they could do it on the cheap since it's just an electrical outlet. But as the EV market matures the traditional fueling locations are starting to add EV charging, and those convenience stores are mostly attended.
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I was too subtle by simply asking, "I wonder why every charging station location doesn't have an attendant?" It clearly doesn't make economical sense to have an attendant for every group of charging stations. If that is true, how much of a premium will need to be charged battery swappers to support a battery-swapping station's real-estate, equipment, inventory, maintenance, AND an attendant?

If battery-swapping stations have attendants 24/7, even in urban areas, much of the attendants' time will be spent doing absolutely nothing and at other times they may not be able to keep up with demand.
 
insightman said:
I was too subtle by simply asking, "I wonder why every charging station location doesn't have an attendant?" It clearly doesn't make economical sense to have an attendant for every group of charging stations. If that is true, how much of a premium will need to be charged battery swappers to support a battery-swapping station's real-estate, equipment, inventory, maintenance, AND an attendant?

If battery-swapping stations have attendants 24/7, even in urban areas, much of the attendants' time will be spent doing absolutely nothing and at other times they may not be able to keep up with demand.
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Attendants not 24/7 , only during busy parts of day. Like Waitress , you dont have 10 waitress all day just during busy times of day.

And yes there will be slow times of day with attendants,. NIO Power is the branch of NIO that does battery swaps. CEO says 60 swaps a day is profitable
 
This is what I was talking about for us rideshare drivers, instead of clogging up the chargers..especially in winter . absolutely perfect. I timed the first car roughly 4 minutes and 2 1/2 minutes on the next car. Taxis just rolling up swapping staying oput of the chargers wy and they get right back on the road making money. Taxi companies paying the premium for a swap vs charge

 
wow another great application for battery swapping.. Semis ! The batteries are of course slow charged so no affect on grid AND can be used t feed the grid when the grid needs extra power

 
OneEV said:
wow another great application for battery swapping.. Semis ! The batteries are of course slow charged so no affect on grid AND can be used t feed the grid when the grid needs extra power

Click to expand...

Well if there is a profit to be made, someone will do it.
 
insightman said:
If battery-swapping stations have attendants 24/7, even in urban areas, much of the attendants' time will be spent doing absolutely nothing and at other times they may not be able to keep up with demand.
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That goes to the heart of my comment that what works in China may not work in the US.
 
insightman said:
I'd venture the battery-swapping model doesn't work in the rural areas of China.
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Not needed in rural areas in China , USA or anywhere else rurally. Battery Swapping is needed in high density urban areas where people live in Apts and dont have access to overnight charging.

Also NIOS new battery swapping stations are completely automated ..but if I had one near me I'd WANT it to have an attendant . As much as I love the idea of batteey swapping I dont want to pull up to one that is down any more than I want to pull up to chargers that are down. For me charging at home is mostly all I need other than when I get long Uber trips and for long drives. those situations I'd much rather just swap and keep moving

The reality is with or without attendants battery swapping is clearly working , a viable alternative to charging or complementary to charging. not an either or, we can have both.
 
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