Battery breakthroughs

Pushmi-Pullyu said:
Posted to another thread:
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That's very exciting, as this will accelerate grid storage of renewables if they can scale it up.

It sounds like the power density is too low to work for EVs though, so maybe they won't appear in EVs anytime soon. He seemed to mention that there might be interim solutions of hybrid lithium + zinc batteries.
 
These are typically primary cells and can not be recharged. Typically the zinc hydroxide is removed for chemical reprocessing back to zinc. So in a car, it would be a replaceable battery pack.

The biggest problem has been the power is limited. Energy density is great but you typically could not draw enough power except for very low power devices ... or to charge a capacitor.

Bob Wilson
 
bwilson4web said:
These are typically primary cells and can not be recharged. Typically the zinc hydroxide is removed for chemical reprocessing back to zinc. So in a car, it would be a replaceable battery pack.

The biggest problem has been the power is limited. Energy density is great but you typically could not draw enough power except for very low power devices ... or to charge a capacitor.

Bob Wilson
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Bob, the breakthrough seems to be that Nant Energy is saying they've figured out the recharging problems, and they've developed and field tested a rechargeable Zinc Air battery that's done over 3000 cycles.

It's low power, but I wonder if they would work as a hybrid with LFePO batteries in an application where space isn't an issue? Such as a bus or a Semi? - the vehicle could draw on the LFePO batteries to accelerate and use the Zinc Air batteries to maintain cruising speeds.
 
Where it can be used will be answered when engineering samples become available and we can get datasheets:
https://phys.org/news/2018-09-zinc-air-batteries-power-remote-areas.html

. . .
"If this is true, it would be great," Jay Whitacre, director of the Scott Institute for Energy Innovation at Carnegie Mellon University, said of NantEnergy's efforts. "If these guys even get close to this price point of $100 per kilowatt hour it is exciting and disruptive...If you can get to that, what you end up with is a technology that is really economical and can be used in many ways."

Whitacre said he would like to see data on how the batteries have performed to assess the impact of what the company achieved.

"It's not just how much it costs when you buy it, it's how long it lasts," Whitacre added. "I have no reason to think that it doesn't work, but I also would need to see some evidence to support these claims. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary support."
. . .​

For example: http://www.microbattery.com/microbat/pdf/energizer/energizer-hearing-aid-battery-004-2014.pdf

Bob Wilson
​
 
Marcel_g said:
Bob, the breakthrough seems to be that Nant Energy is saying they've figured out the recharging problems, and they've developed and field tested a rechargeable Zinc Air battery that's done over 3000 cycles."
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That's a very important distinction. As I understand it, there have been a lot of metal-air fuel cells (incorrectly called "batteries", since batteries don't consume oxygen to produce power), but making one that's rechargeable is pretty rare.

Whether it's a zinc-air or lithium-air or whatever-metal-air fuel cell aka "battery", I seriously doubt any primary (non-rechargeable) fuel cell or battery will ever be used as a traction "battery pack" in any production EV.

* * * * *

@Marcel_g and Bob Wilson:

Thanks for the comments! It's great to see some meaningful discussion of new/ different EV tech.
:) :) :)
 
From high school chemistry, metal-air cells can use the multivalence state to achieve large energy storage:
  • Al +3
  • Fe +3
Each atom can potentially provide three electrons. One challenge is some of the chemical compounds are poor conductors. FYI, powdered aluminum is used in solid fuel rockets to add energy. It is one reason they have a white trail of smoke.

Bob Wilson
 
bwilson4web said:
FYI, powdered aluminum is used in solid fuel rockets to add energy. It is one reason they have a white trail of smoke.
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Nonsense, solid rocket fuel aka "rocket candy" is composed of saltpeter (potassium nitrate) and sugar. I know that's true because I read Homer Hickam's autobiography, Rocket Boys. (The movie adaptation was "October Sky"... which is an anagram).
:D

But seriously, that's a wonderful book (and movie) which speaks to he heart of anyone who had a deep interest in science when growing up.
 
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Pushmi-Pullyu said:
solid rocket fuel aka "rocket candy" is composed of saltpeter (potassium nitrate) and sugar.
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Been there, done that, and the ringing eventually went away. <grins>

In the world of amateur rockets, one of the more scary are the "zinc sulfur" fueled ones. My understanding is the acceleration can be so high that the fuel column fractures leading over pressure and 'rapid disassembly.' Of course this can happen with any poorly designed rocket.

Bob Wilson
 
bwilson4web said:
Been there, done that, and the ringing eventually went away. <grins>

In the world of amateur rockets, one of the more scary are the "zinc sulfur" fueled ones. My understanding is the acceleration can be so high that the fuel column fractures leading over pressure and 'rapid disassembly.' Of course this can happen with any poorly designed rocket.
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You've actually done that? Actually built your own rockets and mixed your own rocket fuel? I'm impressed!

In Rocket Boys, if I recall correctly, Homer went thru three types of increasingly sophisticated fuels in his hobby rockets. The first was black powder, which he abandoned after one of his early rockets blew a large hole in his home's picket fence. I don't recall what the second fuel he used was. As I recall, "rocket candy" was his third and final fuel type. I think that's "scary" enough; if you read online instructions for making the stuff, they always warn you that it should be cooked outdoors, never indoors, because of the very real chance it will catch fire while you're trying to cook it! FOOM!

(Who needs eyebrows or eyelashes, anyway?)
:eek: :D :cool:

bwilson4web said:
leading over pressure and 'rapid disassembly.'
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:p :p :p

"Rapid disassembly". Presumably said with a straight face?

I'll have to remember that one!
;)
 
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Pushmi-Pullyu said:
You've actually done that? Actually built your own rockets and mixed your own rocket fuel?
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Back then, sodium nitrate, sulfur, and carbon black could be bought at any pharmacy.
Pushmi-Pullyu said:
(Who needs eyebrows or eyelashes, anyway?)
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I taught my younger brothers how to make hydrogen using the soda bottle, lye, and a rolled stick of aluminum:

Missing is a filter of rolled kleenex plug to keep the reactant mist from entering the balloon.

So one my brother's friend though he would tape up a dry cleaner, plastic bag and fill it with hydrogen. Well it didn't ascend as fast as he thought it should. So thinking it was another 'Wilson tall tale,' he tested it with a match . . .
Pushmi-Pullyu said:
"Rapid disassembly". Presumably said with a straight face?
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Borrowed from Elon Musk:


Bob Wilson
 
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Pushmi-Pullyu said:
In Rocket Boys, if I recall correctly, Homer went thru three types of increasingly sophisticated fuels in his hobby rockets. The first was black powder...
[snippage] As I recall, "rocket candy" was his third and final fuel type.
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Found my copy of Rocket Boys. No, "rocket candy" was the second fuel type. The third and final type used zinc-sulfur powder, with grain alcohol (moonshine) used to blend the ingredients into a gray paste, in a mixture that Homer dubbed "zincoshine".

* * * * *

But this thread was supposed to be about battery breakthroughs...
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bwilson4web said:
But take every article with a great deal of skepticism. Often what works in small scale, button size cells does not translate to larger cells and batteries.
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Certainly after following announcements of battery breakthroughs on the now defunct TheEEStory forum, where we saw about one wide-eyed, breathless announcement of a breakthrough battery tech every couple of weeks, I've learned to read such announcements with a great deal of skepticism.

I think the pace has picked up on such announcements in the last few years; I'd say they come along more like once a week now.

I generally find such announcements interesting, but the chances that any one of them will be developed into a commercial product are vanishingly small. I'd say definitely worse than 100-to-1 against, perhaps on the order of 1000-to-1 against.
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Hello everybody.
Interesting thread, even I am tired of these breakthroughs that never happens.

Just found this.

it is two years old, and smell like a scam even for someone not trained in the field like me. I see supercaps emerging all over the place, but only for short term storage.

They have a site, but do not sell on it, and the sellers they credit have no offer posted.

Anyway, found one of their product in a store https://solarbatteriesonline.com.au/product/sirius-energy-storage-capacitor-module-3-55kwh-48v/. The price and energy density does not correspond with what they mention in the video, because is four times expensiver than Tesla Powerwall, and twice as heavy. Anyway, if they are not a fraud, the price may drop a lot with scaled production, and weight is no problem for stationary use. But the increased number of cycles can make it a good replacement for lithium, really cheaper on long term. Maybe this is why they considered that the price is equivalent. But since you need to use it 40 years to match the price, it kind does not matter. What matters is the upfront price.

So, any of you living in Australia? Maybe you can take a look at the actual product to see if is real or just another scam.
 
I cannot edit my previous post, so I will ad another one, because on the store I just saw 3 new videos about the product. On the forklift test is a tottaly different price offered because it says less than half of the Lead Acid, which is far from the price shown on store.



in this other video, the guy mention that yes is cheaper if we consider the life expectancy, so clearly they play with words even the product is real.



And funny thing, the third video, posted on the seller site is actually an test that concludes that the battery does not behave like a supercapacitor, but like lithium battery :)
. So kind of I found an answer before my initial post was approved.

Nice scam, they sell batteries four times as expensive. Sue them in 10 years when the batteries will fail.
 
I'd like to use them in a gun for hunting:
  • PM magnets top and bottom
  • side rails for power sabot
  • capacitors in stock
Bob Wilson
 
NeilBlanchard said:
It says it is good for 1K cycles - which is a bit fewer than current batteries, but it may depend of how quickly it fades.
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The industry standard for EV battery cells is that they need to hold up for at least 2000 cycles before degrading to 80% of the original capacity. 1000 cycles ain't gonna cut it, period.

But then, tweaking the chemistry may be able to improve cycle life. Therefore, we shouldn't claim there's no potential there.
 
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