[Autocar] Battery life uncertainty prompts concern over used EVs

  • Thread starter Thread starter fishbert
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies Replies 73
  • Views Views 10K
fishbert

fishbert

Well-Known Member
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/technology/battery-life-uncertainty-prompts-concern-over-used-evs
Concerns are being raised about the usable lifespan of EVs, with specialist companies reporting some cars reaching ‘end of life’ battery capacity after just eight years – and some hitting that point even sooner.

Silver Power Systems (SPS), a specialist in battery performance analysis whose software tracks and monitors battery data and health, says it has observed wide variations in performance, especially within fleets.

“Across even a single fleet, variations in battery health can be up to 10%,” said Pete Bishop, founder and chief technology officer at SPS. “Considering that in most commercial applications, 80% battery capacity is deemed to be end of life in operational terms, 10% degradation represents half a vehicle’s life.”
Click to expand...
Worth noting: The article calls out a 2017 BMW i3 as having a sharp degradation curve (-16% in about 3 years), according to Geotab's EV Battery Degradation Comparison Tool. That tool also looks at a 2018 and 2019 BMW i3, and they have a degradation curve more in line with the average (-3% in 2 years and -1% in 1 year, respectively).
 
This is definitely a concern of mine. I kept my last ICE car 10 years, but what will my SE be worth after 10 years? I'm worried about a steep drop in resale value after 5 years.

I'm not too worried about the battery life itself as long as I own the car. It could only get 50 miles in a charge and it would still meet my needs. But finding a buyer with the same mentality seems unlikely.

It's a brave new world with a lot of unknowns, like any new technology.
 
Anecdotally I have come across an unsettling number of i3 battery warranty complaints online. Batteries with 68-80% SOH. Tesla has sold well over a million Model 3s and I can’t remember any complaints above 5-10% health loss. They also tend to put on vastly more mileage.

8-10 years before needing a new battery would be a major fail in my opinion.
 
chrunck said:
This is definitely a concern of mine. I kept my last ICE car 10 years, but what will my SE be worth after 10 years? I'm worried about a steep drop in resale value after 5 years.
Click to expand...

that depends on how hot the market for lithium and cobalt is, given that recycling EV batteries in the US will convert them into North American manufactured batteries. ;)
 
Qisl said:
that depends on how hot the market for lithium and cobalt is, given that recycling EV batteries in the US will convert them into North American manufactured batteries. ;)
Click to expand...
LFP recycling is economically unfeasible compared to recycling nickel-based cathodes but yes it would count as batteries made in North America. However, LFP refurbishing is technically possible.
 
As I recall, the I3 uses a different battery than the Mini. Either way, I’m not going to lose sleep over it. The warranty is for 100,000 miles.
 
Yes, the i3 used Samsung batteries and the SE uses CATL batteries, so the i3 isn't a good predictor for our cars.
 
insightman said:
Yes, the i3 used Samsung batteries and the SE uses CATL batteries, so the i3 isn't a good predictor for our cars.
Click to expand...
The i3 also had active battery preconditioning, which the SE doesn't. But I take that as one of those "learn from experience" choices, where the cost of the preconditioning exceeds the benefits. The SE has battery cooling, but I haven't noticed the lack of heating (except in extreme arctic cold) since the batteries heat themselves when used.
 
Puppethead said:
The i3 also had active battery preconditioning, which the SE doesn't. But I take that as one of those "learn from experience" choices, where the cost of the preconditioning exceeds the benefits. The SE has battery cooling, but I haven't noticed the lack of heating (except in extreme arctic cold) since the batteries heat themselves when used.
Click to expand...
From the battery tunnel photos, it looks like there are 192 "juice-box" CATL cells compared to the 96 "VHS-box" Samsung SDI cells. I think it was a wise decision to skip the active battery heating.
 
I've only been away from 10 bars once that I noticed. Down to 8 bars accelerating onto the interstate a mile from my house. I think temp was low 20s (F). Within a few miles at 70mph, I had full power.
If I get 200,000. Total cost of ownership will be maybe 1/2 to 2/3 that of an ICE Mini.
By that time, there maybe replacement battery options that won't make me cry.
I'm trying to make sure I use mine. Unlike an ICE car, piling on the miles looks like the most cost effective way to own an EV.
Even if it works out at similar cost to an ICE car, I won't be too upset. It's a reliable little rocket that isn't at the mercy of gas prices and shortages.
The East coast panic buying gas shortage in the spring was what finally made me place an order, after drooling over the SE since it was released. Gas shortages seem to be an annual event here now. It helped that I could also afford to buy one by then...
 
The batteries in EVs do degrade, they are extremely expensive and they haven’t been around long enough for us to really know how long they will probably last. So the public is right to be wary.
That said…
The main issue is that the oldest cars that sold in any volume are the Tesla Model S and Nissan Leaf. And it’s the latter that is mainly causing the general concern due to its lack of active cooling and thus high degradation. The public don’t understand the tech so they just know that there are so many old Leafs that are near dead this this is an electric car issue (even though it’s a leaf issue).
If people though it through a little more and looked at how long Prius hybrid batteries have been lasting, despite the fact they are so small and thus have a lot more cycles on them used as they are, there is less reason to be concerned.
As data comes out showing degradation numbers of cars like the Model 3 and the Y, we’ll have a better idea of where we stand.
The general public is also blissfully unaware how expensive modern engines can be. If you get a catastrophic failure in some of them you’re talking EV battery replacement money for a new one… I know someone who had to pay over $30k for a new 3.0L v6 Land Rover Discovery Engine in a 2 yr old vehicle after it was physically damaged in a way not covered by warranty). That’s a car that costs the same as Tesla Model Y but the engine replacement costs double what a Model Y battery replacement costs. Yes that’s catastrophic failure but still….
However I am concerned about the seeming lack of repair ability if these batteries, I feel the government needs to set some repair ability rules…
 
The Smarts also seem to have a bad reputation for expired batteries.
What is the price of a new SE battery, anyway? I can't see it being over $10k, or the cars would cost more than they do.
 
Funny enough given the used EV incentive coming, the Leaf is now on my short list of used cars to look at for my 15yo come spring/summer when he can get his temps. I love my child but I love my car too lol. Given we both (will) drive usually less than 10 miles in a day, I really don't care much about battery degradation. It will be what it is and if my car battery has to be replaced under warranty then so be it.
 
The only people I know of who have had BEV drive battery replace due to degradation have been Nissan Leaf owners.

Has anyone ever heard of a warranty battery replacement due to degradation in a BEV that has a proper battery cooling and heating system?


Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
 
I think in a few years, 5 max, most people are not going to want ICE cars. Used EV’s values will surpass those of ICE cars. Once someone drives an EV, I don’t see many ever wanting ICE again.
 
A friend on another for him just had the pack replaced on his original Roadster, along with a few other snags, he was without his car for a few months and now he’s out :eek:$49,000.
 
Jim In Tucson said:
The only people I know of who have had BEV drive battery replace due to degradation have been Nissan Leaf owners.

Has anyone ever heard of a warranty battery replacement due to degradation in a BEV that has a proper battery cooling and heating system?
Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
Click to expand...

Early Tesla Model S models, particularly the 85kw pack.
The upper modules in the Kia Soul EV tend to get hotter than the rest of the pack and degrade faster. Not sure if that is a liquid cooled pack or not.
Outside of very early replacements due to manufacturing flaws I haven’t heard of many others, at least not in any volume to be statistically significant…
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top