Another Tesla Fatality with Fire

Martin Williams said:
I will risk Pushmi's wrath by pointing out that we are now at four out of five fatal accidents involving fires.
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I have no idea what you're counting. I'm pretty sure there have been more than 5 fatalities involved with Tesla accidents, including all Tesla cars since 2008, so taken at face value your statement is nonsense.

If you're cherry-picking a handful of the most recent ones, then at least have the decency to say what criteria you're using for that cherry-picking.
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Martin Williams said:
The best estimated I can find for fires following bad accidents in ICEs is about 3%. Teslas seem to be at around 80%
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Please tell us you're kidding. If not, then logically there are three possibilities:

1. You are clinically insane.

2. You are actually clueless enough about the subject to believe that's true (highly unlikely).

3. You are just posting FUD -- you know it's not true.

It amazes me that serial Tesla bashers are trying to gin up controversy over a small number of fires in Tesla cars following accidents so horrible that they resulted in fatalities. Statistics clearly show that Tesla cars are more than twice as safe as gasmobiles regarding the hazard of fire, on the basis of miles traveled.

Tesla has an exemplary record of overall safety, including fire safety, when compared to gasmobiles. This comparison is a win for Tesla!
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David Green said:
Lithium batteries do not always need to suffer physical damage to catch fire, 2 Tesla's that I know of have burned while supercharging, and one other while charging at home, of course Tesla quickly swept these under the carpet, and no explanation was released...
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Let's count the errors here:

1. There was one (1) instance of a Tesla car in Norway which short-circuited while Supercharging, resulting in a fire. This was of course not "swept under the rug" as falsely claimed here, but investigated an the results announced:

From Teslarati: "Tesla Identifies Cause for Model S Fire in Norway"

2. There was a case of another car fire in a Tesla car parked at a Supercharger station in or near Shanghai, but the car was not actually charging at the time.

3. There has been more than one fire related to a Tesla car charging at home, so which one David Green is referring to is not clear. But in no case did an investigation show that the fire was caused by anything in the car's electrical system. For example, Tesla investigators found that one fire started at the wall plug where the car was plugged in.

Again, nothing has been "swept under the rug".
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David Green said:
When Tesla vehicles are in devastating accidents it might be arguable that the fire risk is higher then ICE...
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If there is a car fire you are far safer in a Tesla car than in a gasmobile. When a gasmobile catches fire following an accident, it is likely to burst quickly into flames and the flames are likely to spread quickly.

Contrariwise, li-ion battery fires are slow to start and initially slow to spread. When a Tesla car detects the battery pack overheating, it gives an alarm and displays a warning to pull over safely and exit the car. In every case (with one possible exception), this has given the occupants plenty of time to escape the car before the fire endangered them.

There was one very recent case where initial reports claimed that one or more people were trapped in the back of a Tesla car which caught fire after a horrible accident -- a case of a teen driver speeding far past the speed limie and driving recklessly -- where bystanders claim the occupants were still alive and were unable to get out before they were caught in the fire.

However, as I think we all know, such reports should be viewed with skepticism. Bystander reports are often very unreliable, which is why accident investigators rely on physical evidence far more than eyewitness reports. If this was a case of someone killed in a Tesla car fire, it's the first time it has happened. There are certainly other cases where hardcore Tesla bashers have claimed that people were caught inside a horribly crashed Tesla car and were killed by fire, but in every case accident investigators concluded that the occupants were killed by the crash, not by a fire.
 
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Martin Williams said:
It seems to me that the battery packs - due to their size and density - are likely to suffer severe deformation due to rapid deceleration, and this is likely to cause thermal runaway.
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Nope. If that was the case, it should have shown up in crash tests, which it has not. Nice try at FUD, though. :rolleyes:

Now, there were two Chevy Volts which were subjected to crash testing and then rolled over using a machine, then left sitting in a lot. Those two Volts did catch fire after a few days. But GM claims to have fixed whatever caused them to catch fire, and it seems likely they did since (so far as I know) there has never been a Volt battery fire following a traffic accident.
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Agreed it won't happen unless the impact is pretty violent. I would guess sudden deceleration of the pack itself from the front is most likely to cause significant distortion, due to the momentum of the whole pack being concentrated into crushing cells at the front.
 
Martin Williams said:
Agreed it won't happen unless the impact is pretty violent. I would guess sudden deceleration of the pack itself from the front is most likely to cause significant distortion, due to the momentum of the whole pack being concentrated into crushing cells at the front.
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Just no. This is not physically possible. All the cells are within modules, all the modules are secured within the pack. Nothing moves.
 
Martin Williams said:
I am paranoid about small ones about the house and keep a careful check on them, where they are etc.

The pressure to improve energy density has pushed the technology well against the envelope as regards safety in my opinion.
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Haha! I h
Domenick said:
Just no. This is not physically possible. All the cells are within modules, all the modules are secured within the pack. Nothing moves.
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I do not think the pack can deform without physical impact. I am curious to see a model 3 pack fire. I think with the gel fill, the fire will propagate much more slowly, but at the same time put off some very nasty toxins.
 
David Green said:
I do not think the pack can deform without physical impact. I am curious to see a model 3 pack fire. I think with the gel fill, the fire will propagate much more slowly, but at the same time put off some very nasty toxins.
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I'm currently watching a Model 3 battery tear down video, but it's long and they haven't gotten to any gel fill that I've heard rumors about. I'll write up a post on the website when I'm done, but it may only be tomorrow.
 
Domenick said:
I'm currently watching a Model 3 battery tear down video, but it's long and they haven't gotten to any gel fill that I've heard rumors about. I'll write up a post on the website when I'm done, but it may only be tomorrow.
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If you are watching the one from the old, heavy set guy, no need, he does not tear into the battery, just takes the cover off...
 
David Green said:
If you are watching the one from the old, heavy set guy, no need, he does not tear into the battery, just takes the cover off...
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I am indeed watching the EVTV one. I've gotten to the taking off the cover part and they were pointing out what various things are. I still have 30 minutes left to watch, but thanks for the warning. :(

Do you happen to know of any source that discusses this gel, aside from the discussion with Munro?
 
Domenick said:
I am indeed watching the EVTV one. I've gotten to the taking off the cover part and they were pointing out what various things are. I still have 30 minutes left to watch, but thanks for the warning. :(

Do you happen to know of any source that discusses this gel, aside from the discussion with Munro?
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I do not, I think they are the only one doing a complete teardown, and analyzing the build process and materials. Sandy will be back on Autoline After Hours soon to go over the final report, I am very curious to see the update. I am sure he is going to address the gel... environmental issues, and recycling ability as that will be important to life cycle costs for EV's
 
David Green said:
I do not, I think they are the only one doing a complete teardown, and analyzing the build process and materials. Sandy will be back on Autoline After Hours soon to go over the final report, I am very curious to see the update. I am sure he is going to address the gel... environmental issues, and recycling ability as that will be important to life cycle costs for EV's
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The WeberAuto YouTube channel has done Volt and Bolt battery tear downs that were pretty good. Not sure if they're trying to get a hold of a Model 3. New ones are hard to come by, and crashed ones are commanding a strong price yet.
 
Domenick said:
The WeberAuto YouTube channel has done Volt and Bolt battery tear downs that were pretty good. Not sure if they're trying to get a hold of a Model 3. New ones are hard to come by, and crashed ones are commanding a strong price yet.
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Yes, but Weber does not do a build of process which I am more interested in. Munro will be very scientific about the battery, how its made, and what is in it. We will know the exact Cobalt content, and if Tesla is truly ahead of the others in battery making from a scientific standpoint. How many VOC compounds are used in its manufacturer, and how to recycle. It should be very enlightening.
 
NeilBlanchard said:
I have personally witnessed a gasoline ICE car catch on fire while idling in a parking lot.
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Was it the fuel tank that caught fire? Electrical? Oil? I have seen a few vehicle fires, heavy trucks and motorhomes often start in the brakes. I have seen 2 Ford pickups have the transmission catch fire while towing, one you could see the drips of flaming transmission fluid going out while the vehicle was at a stop light.
 
It was on the engine, near the carburetor / throttle body, with the hood open.

My point is, there are dozens of car fires each and every day, in just the US.
 
NeilBlanchard said:
It was on the engine, near the carburetor / throttle body, with the hood open.

My point is, there are dozens of car fires each and every day, in just the US.
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I see, so caught fire while being maintained? I have seen that, my 69 Camaro 302 in high school used to backfire through the carburetor sometimes if I had the timing too retarded, but it would not start hot if it was too advanced... It was a delicate operation to get it just right, since I did not have a timing light, it was all by sound of the engine.

But comparing fire risk of modern Tesla's against the entire fleet of licensed vehicles is misleading as most cars are 10+ years old... Should compare the fire risk of Tesla, to other BEV, and modern ICE cars in competitive segments. That is a real comparison.
 
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