Advice on EV vs PHEV vs Hybrid

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gleasonFan

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In the near future our 2014 Lincoln MKZ may need to be replaced. For long trips, my wife prefer her 2018 Jeep Compass. Most of my driving is under 30 miles round trip. I'm very satisfied with the MKZ as it's been averaging 30mpg since we got it, but the short trips are killing the economy. I wish I could find a hybrid car (regular or PHEV) or a full on EV at a reasonable price. Right now, that limits me to used Fusions or MKZs. Yup, I'm a Ford fan, as has been my family since the 1930s. I prefer US vehicles simply because that in my 50+ years of driving I only had one give me problems and that was because there was an aluminum carb mounted directly on a cast iron intake. I'm not too wild about buying a glorified truck (SUV).
Any suggestions for what I might consider?
 
gleasonFan said:
In the near future our 2014 Lincoln MKZ may need to be replaced. For long trips, my wife prefer her 2018 Jeep Compass. Most of my driving is under 30 miles round trip. I'm very satisfied with the MKZ as it's been averaging 30mpg since we got it, but the short trips are killing the economy. I wish I could find a hybrid car (regular or PHEV) or a full on EV at a reasonable price. Right now, that limits me to used Fusions or MKZs. Yup, I'm a Ford fan, as has been my family since the 1930s. I prefer US vehicles simply because that in my 50+ years of driving I only had one give me problems and that was because there was an aluminum carb mounted directly on a cast iron intake. I'm not too wild about buying a glorified truck (SUV).
Any suggestions for what I might consider?
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See InsideEVs' Honda Clarity forum. The Clarity was built in Japan, unlike most Hondas sold in the US, so it doesn't meet your US-vehicle requirement--it's too bad Honda discontinued this great PHEV car. Here's the start of one of tonight's posts:
jdonalds said:
Best car I've ever owned or driven.
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You might consider a Mustang Mach E if you want a Ford. I found them very comfortable and plenty of room. I ended up with and F150 Lightning Pro and have been very happy with it but they tend to be as rare as unicorns at this time.
 
The MINI Cooper SE is not for everyone, but it's a fun car to drive and is built from the same well-worn ICE F56 MINI Cooper that has been around since 2013, so the engineering is well-tested (the electric components are from the BMW i3). It's one of what I consider the three affordable EVs under $40,000: Nissan Leaf, Chevy Bolt, MINI Cooper SE.
 
My approach when changing technology is to buy a one owner, used car with some warranty left. Used, you can sell or trade it in with a minimum depreciation loss.

Ideally, the first option should be one coming off lease with some existing manufacturer warranty. Avoid a first model year car as they often have infantile problems that often get fixed in the factory in the following years. Let me share my experiences:
  • 2003 Prius - bought with 49,000 miles with first drive 800 miles home. It led to my first mph vs MPG charts and insights on how to achieve 52 MPG on any trip. The car lasted 270,000 miles until a part broke that was too expensive, even with a junk yard part and my free labor to fix.
  • 2010 Prius - bought new, it served 65,000 mile before sold. The BMW i3-REx made it redundant. Always got 52-54 MPG and once did 1,000 miles on a single tank of gas over three weeks.
  • 2014 BMW i3-REx - bought with 6,000 miles from a reseller, it was an end-of-lease. A first model year, it had weak motor mounts that broke under warranty ... and was warranty repaired. My former wife's choice when we split, the Range Extender engine means she avoids the CCS-1 'troubles.' It has more than 100,000 miles and she loves it.
  • 2017 Prius Prime - the 25 mile EV range was a disaster along with a host of 'piss Bob off' infantile problems. Traded it in for my current ride.
  • 2019 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus - the best car I've ever owned. Bought for Autopilot and later added Full Self Driving (FSD.) It has 103,000 miles and the best part is FSD that continues to improve and not wear out. Traded in the Prius Prime which reduced the purchase price to $24,000.
Let me suggest make a list of mandatory and optional requirements:
  • Mandatory - pass/fail such as a seat for every member of the family. In my case, the earliest versions of Autopilot and the ability to cover 1,000 miles in a 24 hour period.
  • Optional - elements that can have a weighted value, either cost or ranking. These are nice to have like paint color or sound systems.
Once you and your family agree on the mandatory requirements, the optional ones are negotiable. Go shopping and remember: GOOD, CHEAP, FAST ... pick two.

Bob Wilson
 
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You say, "I'm not too wild about a glorified truck (SUV)." Neither was I, until I realized that many small crossovers, including the Hyundai Kona EV that I've now owned for 3 years, are really cars pretending to be SUVs. There's nothing remotely truck-y about my Kona. I suspect the same could be said of the Mustang MachE, since you're a Ford fan, and probably much the same could be said of the Kia Niro and the Chevy Bolt EUV (if the regular Bolt is too small for you). Since you haven't indicated a price range, it's hard to know what's affordable for you. As for "American cars," I assume you mean American brands, since your MKZ was built in Mexico.
 
gleasonFan said:
In the near future our 2014 Lincoln MKZ may need to be replaced. For long trips, my wife prefer her 2018 Jeep Compass. Most of my driving is under 30 miles round trip. I'm very satisfied with the MKZ as it's been averaging 30mpg since we got it, but the short trips are killing the economy. I wish I could find a hybrid car (regular or PHEV) or a full on EV at a reasonable price. Right now, that limits me to used Fusions or MKZs. Yup, I'm a Ford fan, as has been my family since the 1930s. I prefer US vehicles simply because that in my 50+ years of driving I only had one give me problems and that was because there was an aluminum carb mounted directly on a cast iron intake. I'm not too wild about buying a glorified truck (SUV).
Any suggestions for what I might consider?
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You sound like a perfect candidate for a PHEV Escape…




Sent from my iPad using Inside EVs
 
Proper plug in hybrid pickups that can do most days (about 100 miles) just on batteries, is what is missing in the segment, and is the 0-25 year future imo.
 
Suns_PSD said:
Proper plug in hybrid pickups that can do most days (about 100 miles) just on batteries, is what is missing in the segment, and is the 0-25 year future imo.
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My Honda Clarity Plug-In Hybrid is rated at 47 miles on EV power. I'll be surprised if any PHEV pick-up can achieve that based on current battery technology.
 
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insightman said:
My Honda Clarity Plug-In Hybrid is rated at 47 miles on EV power. I'll be surprised if any PHEV pick-up can achieve that based on current battery technology.
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Eh…just a matter of adding the right size battery. The BMW i3 with range extender had an identical battery to the BEV version. Ford could, conceivably, add an engine/generator to the Lightning and create a PHEV with huge range…‍♂️
 
CFBrand3rd said:
Eh…just a matter of adding the right size battery. The BMW i3 with range extender had an identical battery to the BEV version. Ford could, conceivably, add an engine/generator to the Lightning and create a PHEV with huge range…‍♂️
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Where would I put my frunk-full of beer/ice if Ford put a range-extender there? The i3's range-extender ICE couldn't handle the much larger Lightning. Then you have to find room for a large gas tank--the i3's 2.4-gallon tank wouldn't power a larger range-extender ICE for long.
 
The engine-generator only needs to provide steady state, highway driving. Tuned Atkinson cycle with cooled exhaust, a motorcycle engine works great. Efficient, a small tank is all that is needed.

Bob Wilson
 
3 cylinder EcoBoost in the front (with provision to power the front driveshaft directly) and make the battery a bit smaller, tucking a 10 gallon tank between it and the rear axle. You could even keep the full size spare!
 
Around a 60 kwh plug in battery pack, enough to get a FS truck around 100-130 miles, meaning it's enough for most everyday scenarios. Full EV drive system using electric propulsion motors and all the goodness they provide.
Then an ICE range extending generator that can run while the vehicle is parked or running and the driver has the ability to control.
Save tons of money and weight on battery packs, all that EV driving pleasantness, enough battery for the majority of daily trips, and little to no range anxiety for longer trips/ towing/ inclement weather. Also get a great back up generator system.
 
Good write up here and I particularly like this in one of the comments referring to BMW i3 Rex:

"Most PHEVs have 3 fundamental problems. All electric range is the first. As the article outlines, AER of 75 miles or more would significantly cut down on the ICE usage of a PHEV.

Second is an oversized dependence on the ICE. Need heat? Turn on the ICE. Need more power? Turn on the ICE. ICE reliant engineers have a difficult time understanding that the ICE in a PHEV should be strictly a backup system to the electric drivetrain.

Finally, most PHEVs have a crippled charging infrastructure which lacks DCFC. For some reason neither PHEV or BEV designers really figured out that the smaller the battery and the smaller the range, the more important it is to have fast charging capability for range extension.

Only one PHEV almost got it right: the BMW i3 Rex. BMW designed it as a BEV with a serial ICE whose only job was to recharge the battery. The vehicle started with 75 miles of range, ending at over 120 at the end of its run. It had DCFC capability. And the only purpose for the ICE was to recharge the battery. It's only flaw was that the ICE was a bit too crippled in terms of the fact that the gas tank was limited to 2.4G and that the ICE would only come on when the main battery got down to 6%. The latter could be changed with a bit of coding where the ICE could be activated when the battery was under 75% capacity and could run at the same time. This was great for range extension for long trips instead of white knuckling a 5% battery and an empty gas tank.

The concept should be revisited with a larger gas tank and a bit faster DCFC speed than the 50kW the i3 Rex had. A 100 mile AER battery with a 10-15 gallon tank that charges at 100-125 kW in a large SUV/truck package would be close to a perfect combination as a urban/suburban commuter with the ability to carry around larger families or moderate towing on longer trips.

ga2500ev"
 
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electriceddy said:
Good write up here and I particularly like this in one of the comments referring to BMW i3 Rex:

"Most PHEVs have 3 fundamental problems. All electric range is the first. As the article outlines, AER of 75 miles or more would significantly cut down on the ICE usage of a PHEV.

Second is an oversized dependence on the ICE. Need heat? Turn on the ICE. Need more power? Turn on the ICE. ICE reliant engineers have a difficult time understanding that the ICE in a PHEV should be strictly a backup system to the electric drivetrain.

Finally, most PHEVs have a crippled charging infrastructure which lacks DCFC. For some reason neither PHEV or BEV designers really figured out that the smaller the battery and the smaller the range, the more important it is to have fast charging capability for range extension.

Only one PHEV almost got it right: the BMW i3 Rex. BMW designed it as a BEV with a serial ICE whose only job was to recharge the battery. The vehicle started with 75 miles of range, ending at over 120 at the end of its run. It had DCFC capability. And the only purpose for the ICE was to recharge the battery. It's only flaw was that the ICE was a bit too crippled in terms of the fact that the gas tank was limited to 2.4G and that the ICE would only come on when the main battery got down to 6%. The latter could be changed with a bit of coding where the ICE could be activated when the battery was under 75% capacity and could run at the same time. This was great for range extension for long trips instead of white knuckling a 5% battery and an empty gas tank.

The concept should be revisited with a larger gas tank and a bit faster DCFC speed than the 50kW the i3 Rex had. A 100 mile AER battery with a 10-15 gallon tank that charges at 100-125 kW in a large SUV/truck package would be close to a perfect combination as a urban/suburban commuter with the ability to carry around larger families or moderate towing on longer trips.
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To get it right, BMW spent millions developing the i3's lightweight carbon-plastic body (which is why it's slightly quicker than the steel-bodied MINI Cooper SE with the same motor). The 34-hp, 2-cylinder REx engine adds 330 lbs (plus 14.5 lbs for 2.4 gallons of gas), which negatively affects the EV performance. All the tech BMW poured into this now discontinued vehicle pushed the price higher than most were willing to pay for such a small vehicle.

Perhaps future battery technology will enable faster charging for small batteries, but the Honda e demonstrates the problem with current technology. The i3 charges at a maximum of 50 kW vs the Honda e's 100 kW. Unfortunately, to protect the battery, the Honda e charges at 100 kW only if the battery is close to fully discharged. Mere minutes after charging begins, the charging rate declines and the 100-kW Honda e finishes charging just a few minutes sooner than the 50-kW i3 with a similar-sized battery.

Having to put gas in my Honda Clarity PHEV just once in 2022, I'd say Honda got it right--for my case: where 47 miles of EV range was more than I needed for most trips last year.

Also, unlike the i3 REx, the Clarity provides extensive control over when the engine kicks in. When the Hybrid Vehicle (HV) mode is selected, the Clarity uses a little battery power here and there, but slowly restores it to the original SOC as the trip continues. I'm amazed that HV mode can enable this 2-ton car to achieve 42 mpg.

Unlike some other PHEVs, the Clarity doesn't require the engine to provide cabin heat. It doesn't have a heat pump, so the EV range takes a big hit when engineless heat is chosen. However, to preserve EV range, the engine can be started and it will take over the delivery of cabin heat.

When you floor the accelerator in EV mode, the Clarity PHEV starts the engine to provide both EV and engine power to handle emergency situations. The Clarity is a very comfortable car for long trips--more comfortable than an i3 (or my MINI Cooper SE) IMO.

All vehicles require many design and cost compromises, and PHEVs require even more compromises. It sounds like Toyota is planning to use solid-state batteries first in their PHEVs. If those PHEVs are affordable and provide more than 100 miles of EV range, they could really get it right.
 
A former 2014 BMW i3-REx owner, this needs a few corrections:
insightman said:
To get it right, BMW spent millions developing the i3's lightweight carbon-plastic body (which is why it's slightly quicker than the steel-bodied MINI Cooper SE with the same motor). The 34-hp, 2-cylinder REx engine adds 330 lbs (plus 14.5 lbs for 2.4 gallons of gas), which negatively affects the EV performance. All the tech BMW poured into this now discontinued vehicle pushed the price higher than most were willing to pay for such a small vehicle.
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  • BMW board let the good CEO go and replaced him with a gas clone. His earliest actions were to chase off the BMW i3 design team, sell off their carbon fiber manufacturing plant, and freeze the BMW i3 which was followed by the disastrous BMW i8. Had BMW ridden the production savings curve down, they would have a huge lineup of light weight EVs and even gassers.
  • Source: https://weightofstuff.com/how-much-does-a-transmission-weigh-with-examples/ "On average, vehicle transmissions weigh between 100 and 400 pounds." The BMW engine weight probably includes the generator.
  • The anti-EV, replacement CEO never let production efficiencies reduce the price but the exceptionally affordable lease terms kept them in production.
The BMW board of directors squandered their EV and PHEV lead in 2014. 'Pearls Before Swine' applies.

Bob Wilson
 
Current BMW CEO Oliver Zipse may have to retire soon under Rule 60 just like it happened to Norbert Reithofer in May 2015. Also, under German corporate law Mitbestimmungsgesetz, 50% of supervisory board directors are from the union.
 
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