Absolute proof that EVs pollute less no matter what their source of electricity

[Landshark]

Tesla Powerwall - Made in the US, 10 year warranty, quoted as $14,100 for 2 Powerwall batteries (13.5 kWh each = 27 kWh) = $522/kWh, but then factor in the Federal tax credit for solar projects and it is $366/kWh.

Yes, the starting price of a Powerwall is less than $1000/kWh. I guess that’s an advantage a company that can sell products for years and lose billions of dollars has over other companies. Maybe I should take advantage of the situation.

I can also get the same capacity out of lead acid batteries from Rolls Surrette, which I have been using at the house for 7 years, for $6000 and take advantage of the same tax credit. I expect my exciting batteries to last another 7 years, as a 15 year service life is not uncommon.

There is still promise on the horizon. I’ll probably install solar and upgrade the motorhome to lithium within 2 years, before the tax credit goes to zero. The home upgrade to lithium will be a gamble between 2 years and a 22% tax credit or 7 years and possibly lower lithium prices or some new magic bullet battery technology.

 

[Sandroad]

Can we please once and for all drive a stake through the heart of the lie that EVs are not less polluting than gas or diesel cars depending on their source of electricity? Here’s an article about the proof straight from the Argonne National Laboratory (and if you can’t trust their scientific method, who can you trust?) that even a Tesla 100% powered by coal is cleaner and emits less CO2 than a gas powered car by far.

https://observer.com/2019/11/tesla-coal-powered-model-greener-normal-car-study/

And here’s the study’s abstract for all my fellow techno-weenies.

https://web.a.ebscohost.com/abstract?direct=true&profile=ehost&scope=site&authtype=crawler&jrnl=18357156&AN=139515016&h=t5YVudZ7K+3/4q1G8rXuE2hRcTon1G2ulszQnMT0Ttr+4JQoSIly16yf6cHLzwhfwlbulXcNBkMuf+wRuk4wOw==&crl=c&resultNs=AdminWebAuth&resultLocal=ErrCrlNotAuth&crlhashurl=login.aspx?direct=true&profile=ehost&scope=site&authtype=crawler&jrnl=18357156&AN=139515016

This is from a posting today (12/16/19) in the the General section of Insideevs:
https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/state-electric-vehicle-benefits

 

[ClarityBill]

This is from a posting today (12/16/19) in the the General section of Insideevs:
https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/state-electric-vehicle-benefits

I had heard rumors that the Union of Concerned Scientists in wacky, but this seems to prove it.

For New York they are claiming charging an EV at home is equivalent to paying $0.36 per gallon equivalent... I'm sure there is math, and science to support that, but it only works in wacky land. This figure is lined up with $2.73 per gallon of gas: As if these two numbers are directly comparable.

Seems like a very biased presentation of 'facts'.

 

[petteyg359]

I had heard rumors that the Union of Concerned Scientists in wacky, but this seems to prove it.

For New York they are claiming charging an EV at home is equivalent to paying $0.36 per gallon equivalent... I'm sure there is math, and science to support that, but it only works in wacky land. This figure is lined up with $2.73 per gallon of gas: As if these two numbers are directly comparable.

Seems like a very biased presentation of 'facts'.

Funny how things are wacky here in Texas, too. Maybe reality really is biased towards facts...

 

[ClarityBill]

Funny how things are wacky here in Texas, too. Maybe reality really is biased towards facts...

I am confused by your statement. Do you think reality matches their facts?
Is your home electricity equivalent to paying $0.57 per gallon, as stated by UCSUSA?

I guess I should have been more clear, but their statement of $0.36 per gallon equivalent does not seem close to reality in New York.

Obviously, reality is biased toward facts. I do not agree with these statements that they presented as significant facts.

 

[craze1cars]

That is completely ridiculous. Have no idea where their math comes from. It says EV is equivalent to $0.30/ gallon gas in Indiana. Yeah right. I did the math at one time and calculated my break even to be somewhere in the $1.64 range given my electric rates of about .11 per kWh. Someone here made a calculator that worked well and posted it some time back...

 

[petteyg359]

Given the free nights electricity plans (somebody's got to burn off that excess West Texas wind power) and solar panels on my roof, charging the car is equivalent to $0.00/gallon gas. If I do some math and assume I'm actually paying for electricity, then it's not nearly as drastic as gas-less-than-$1-per-gallon, but kWh-per-mile price still beats out gas-per-mile price by a few cents with gas around $2.30. If gas goes back up to $3, then EV just gets better.

 

[DucRider]

I had heard rumors that the Union of Concerned Scientists in wacky, but this seems to prove it.

For New York they are claiming charging an EV at home is equivalent to paying $0.36 per gallon equivalent... I'm sure there is math, and science to support that, but it only works in wacky land. This figure is lined up with $2.73 per gallon of gas: As if these two numbers are directly comparable.

Seems like a very biased presentation of 'facts'.

I am confused by your statement. Do you think reality matches their facts?
Is your home electricity equivalent to paying $0.57 per gallon, as stated by UCSUSA?

I guess I should have been more clear, but their statement of $0.36 per gallon equivalent does not seem close to reality in New York.

Obviously, reality is biased toward facts. I do not agree with these statements that they presented as significant facts.

Reading before posting is apparently a waste of time? The science and facts are readily available on the linked page.

Rate design and costs were obtained via the U.S. Department of Energy’s Utility Rate Database with confirmation using the websites of the electric service providers. The marginal volumetric rate including adjustments (taxes and fees) was determined for each service provider. Fixed charges (meter charges) were not included. Seasonal rates were averaged based on the proportional length of the season, with the assumption that EV electric use occurs at a constant rate throughout the year. Demand charges were added if they were applied at all hours, assuming 30A, 240V (7.2 kW) charging with 1.6 hours of charging required per day (12,700 miles per year, 0.325 kWh per mile). If demand charges were applied only on peak hours, then no demand charges were added; it is assumed that charging would be avoided during peak periods. Tiered non-TOU rates assumed that EV charging was above the average EIA household consumption or over 100 percent of baseline (if data were available). EV monthly charging was assumed to require 344 kWh/month (11.3 kWh/day). When both tiered and non-tiered TOU/EV rates were available, the non-tiered rates were used. If multiple TOU/EV rates were available, the rate with the lowest nighttime rate was chosen. Rates that required installation of an additional meter were not considered due to the difficulty in quantifying the expense and charges associated with installation and use of a second meter. Rates for deregulated markets were estimated by selecting representative rate plans with a 12-month contract period. Because the rate structures in deregulated markets can vary significantly between electricity providers, rates available in these markets may result in lower electricity costs than those presented here. For each rate where a per kWh charge (and per KW demand charge, if applicable) was known, the $/GGE equivalent was calculated using (electricity cost) x (EV efficiency) x (1/gasoline efficiency), where the EV efficiency was the sales-weighted US EV efficiency (0.325 kWh/mi) and miles per gallon were 25.6, the average new vehicle efficiency for all MY2016 vehicles. Note that the GGE rate for Newark was based on an average for NJ GGE rates, since data for Newark was unavailable. The price for gasoline in each city was determined using data from GasBuddy (www.gasbuddy.com/Charts) on the average cost of regular gasoline, using prices on October 24, 2017 for cities with data from 2017 (see Table 2 below); prices on October 1, 2019 for Des Moines, IA; and prices on October 10, 2019 for Anchorage, AK.
​

As to comparing electricity cost to gas cost, the numbers are directly comparable and that is much of the point - showing that EV's are not only cleaner but electricity can be a more economical fuel. Every individuals situation is different, and you indeed need to figure your specific costs based on exactly where you live, what vehicle(s) you drive or want to compare, where and how you charge, what rate plan you are on from your specific utility, etc.
Are they picking the rate plan most favorable to EV charging? Yes, but why wouldn't you if you were driving an EV?
Is the study a little out of date? Yes. It uses 2016 grid data (the grid is cleaner now and EV's pollute even less), and 2017 gas prices (now a little higher nationally) and 2017 electricity prices (also up a bit).

 

[Tek_Freek]

I'm supposed to read something? Way too much effort involved. LOL!!!

Hey, my home town was mentioned. That is a rarity indeed.

 

[ClarityBill]

As to comparing electricity cost to gas cost, the numbers are directly comparable and that is much of the point - showing that EV's are not only cleaner but electricity can be a more economical fuel. Every individuals situation is different, and you indeed need to figure your specific costs based on exactly where you live, what vehicle(s) you drive or want to compare, where and how you charge, what rate plan you are on from your specific utility, etc.
Are they picking the rate plan most favorable to EV charging? Yes, but why wouldn't you if you were driving an EV?
Is the study a little out of date? Yes. It uses 2016 grid data (the grid is cleaner now and EV's pollute even less), and 2017 gas prices (now a little higher nationally) and 2017 electricity prices (also up a bit).

So the Union of Concerned Scientists has produced a document that shows that electricity can be a more economical fuel, but ignored the fact that it can also be a more expensive fuel: Seems like biased reporting of the facts.

They not only chose the plan most favorable to EV charging, they reported on the most favorable plan in the state.

They also stated that in Texas it is equivalent to driving a gasmobile that gets 59 mpg: So it is cleaner than the 'average' but not cleaner than some gas vehicles. This analysis did ignore the life-cycle effects (and still only came up equal to 59 mpg). They also ignored the effects of cold temperature on cabin heat requirements.

The average new gas powered vehicle was calculated at 25.6 mpg: The comparable gasmobile to most EV's would have a higher efficiency.

I did not read their disclaimers before I posted, but I do not find anything in your posting that refutes the subject of my post:

Seems like a very biased presentation of 'facts'.

 

[Tek_Freek]

I'll let the wiz kids figure it out.

I pay 6 cents a kWh for electricity.
Gas price/gallon: $2.89 where I fill up
I'm getting about 55 miles from the battery
About 42mpg gas

 

[ClarityBill]

I'll let the wiz kids figure it out.

I pay 6 cents a kWh for electricity.
Gas price/gallon: $2.89 where I fill up
I'm getting about 55 miles from the battery
About 42mpg gas

I work that out to about $0.64 per gallon of gas equivalent for your electric cost.
(assuming 14 kWh to charge and go 55 miles)

Very impressive!

 

[Tek_Freek]

55 miles might be a bit high over the next couple of months. It's actually getting a bit nippy in Las Vegas.

 

[DucRider]

So the Union of Concerned Scientists has produced a document that shows that electricity can be a more economical fuel, but ignored the fact that it can also be a more expensive fuel: Seems like biased reporting of the facts.

They not only chose the plan most favorable to EV charging, they reported on the most favorable plan in the state.

They also stated that in Texas it is equivalent to driving a gasmobile that gets 59 mpg: So it is cleaner than the 'average' but not cleaner than some gas vehicles. This analysis did ignore the life-cycle effects (and still only came up equal to 59 mpg). They also ignored the effects of cold temperature on cabin heat requirements.

The average new gas powered vehicle was calculated at 25.6 mpg: The comparable gasmobile to most EV's would have a higher efficiency.

I did not read their disclaimers before I posted, but I do not find anything in your posting that refutes the subject of my post:

Seems like a very biased presentation of 'facts'.

The most recently linked study didn't draw conclusions on mpg equivalents, so a bit confused as to what you are referring to.
How many "gasmobiles" exceed 59 mpg? I'm drawing a blank...
Prius eco is 56, Hyundai Ioniq 58. Close but still no cigar.
It is important to note they are comparing average efficiency vehicles in both classes, EV and gas. There are more and less efficient models for both.
Comparing the 58 mpg Ioniq to the EV version in zip code 75001 on the fueleconomy.gov site yields 186 g/mile on the 58 mpg hybrid (tailpipe and upstream) vs 130 for the EV version. This puts the EV version as about the same as an 81 mpg gasmobile.

Life cycle effects do not impact mpg (or mpge), but mpge (or Wh per mile, mi per kWh) combined with battery size and chemistry will change the ROI +/- from the 2 year average.

I'm seeing lots of "Flat Earther" logic thrown about by people that don't want to believe the numbers/conclusions from studies based on science. They can't seem to come up with anything that refutes the quoted studies (other than their personal beliefs), but just seem to know it isn't true.

The compare the average new vehicle to the average EV in select markets to judge cost savings. There are many tools available to compare cleanliness of specific vehicles side-by-side with using a specific zip code and custmizable driving patterns.

 

[ClarityBill]

The most recently linked study didn't draw conclusions on mpg equivalents, so a bit confused as to what you are referring to.
How many "gasmobiles" exceed 59 mpg? I'm drawing a blank...
Prius eco is 56, Hyundai Ioniq 58. Close but still no cigar.
It is important to note they are comparing average efficiency vehicles in both classes, EV and gas. There are more and less efficient models for both.
Comparing the 58 mpg Ioniq to the EV version in zip code 75001 on the fueleconomy.gov site yields 186 g/mile on the 58 mpg hybrid (tailpipe and upstream) vs 130 for the EV version. This puts the EV version as about the same as an 81 mpg gasmobile.

Life cycle effects do not impact mpg (or mpge), but mpge (or Wh per mile, mi per kWh) combined with battery size and chemistry will change the ROI +/- from the 2 year average.

I'm seeing lots of "Flat Earther" logic thrown about by people that don't want to believe the numbers/conclusions from studies based on science. They can't seem to come up with anything that refutes the quoted studies (other than their personal beliefs), but just seem to know it isn't true.

The compare the average new vehicle to the average EV in select markets to judge cost savings. There are many tools available to compare cleanliness of specific vehicles side-by-side with using a specific zip code and custmizable driving patterns.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.