“No, I like gas cars.”

[Ryan C]

That’s an odd title for an EV forum. Those words were spoken by a co-worker a few days ago while we were discussing vehicles. He described how his Toyota was a perfect car for his long commute. My brain immediately did the math, Toyota + long commute = Prius, so I asked. That’s when the words came out, “No, I like gas cars, it’s a Camry”

We had a Prius from 2004-13 and constantly fielded questions such as, “Don’t you have to plug it in?” and “How far can it go?” Even 13 years after the car became available many people thought it was a BEV.

When I explain some of the features of the Clarity, their eyes seem to glaze over when they hear “50 miles of range on batteries” as if I’ve said, “the car is no good if you need to drive more than 50 miles”. It’s over for them at that point and now it’s time to talk about the bad call in the game last night, or a cat video or what someone tweeted.

Many of my co-workers openly express views that would lead me to believe they live in small energy efficient homes covered with solar panels, are close to work, use public transit or drive a small hybrid or BEV. Check “None of the above” on that. Many live 20-30 miles away in large, well air conditioned homes with heated swimming pools and no solar. The parking lot at work is full of large SUV, pick ups and expensive luxury sedans with V-8’s or twin turbo V-6’s that put out NASCAR horsepower figures.

I understand the reluctance to tamper with a comfortable lifestyle, which is why few actually put their money where their mouth is. I’m more curious about how so many well educated, well paid professionals can be so oblivious to how a hybrid or PHEV operates.

I tell everyone I can about this car. I’ve found it best to just say I’m getting 135 mpg and climbing. If someone is thinking in gasoline terms there’s enough of a shock factor there to gather their interest. My previous car was a 4 cyl. Mazda 6 averaging 30 mpg in the same SoCal commute and my Clarity is far cheaper to operate. I can understand the hesitation due to lower cost gasoline but in California at near $4/gallon the SUV craze blows my mind.

 

[Landshark]

Avoiding full service gas stations like those in Oregon and New Jersey would be reason enough to consider a BEV or PHEV!

It sounds like there is a BEV in your future so you can avoid gas stations entirely.

The gas stations in Oregon are not “full service”. There is an attendant who takes your card or cash, pumps the fuel and returns your card/change and a receipt, all while you sit in the cozy comfort of your car.

We don’t have the cheapest fuel in the country, currently ~$3/gal, but it sure is nice to have someone else do the dirty work.

 

[Kerbe]

I wholly agree with the first part.. Unfortunately, precisely what you mention at the end are the kind of issues that keep many (most?) people from switching into EVs. People follow convenience (aka "law of the least effort"), so until these issues aren't solved (hopefully), ICE is not going away any time soon. PHEVs offer the best of both worlds although for some (economical?) reasons automakers are shunning (ex. Volt) them in spite of being a huge step on the right direction, just like 19th century early steamships kept masts and sails for many decades, just in case they ran out of coal in the middle of the ocean until eventually they didn't need that anymore, but we are not there yet.

WAIT! Electric cars run on coal? No WONDER they pollute so much more than real cars!

 

[Landshark]

WAIT! Electric cars run on coal? No WONDER they pollute so much more than real cars!

It’s quite a stretch to reach that conclusion from the quote you attached.

However, the US generates roughly 20% of its electricity from burning coal. Approximately a dozen states generate at least 50% of their electricity from coal.

So, you are absolutely correct that electric cars do run on coal to a certain degree.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

The mindset expressed in the title of this thread is best described as “Status Quo Bias”.

Anyone can google it, but this sums it up...

 

[vvk]

It sounds like there is a BEV in your future so you can avoid gas stations entirely.

The gas stations in Oregon are not “full service”. There is an attendant who takes your card or cash, pumps the fuel and returns your card/change and a receipt, all while you sit in the cozy comfort of your car.

We don’t have the cheapest fuel in the country, currently ~$3/gal, but it sure is nice to have someone else do the dirty work.

That is even more infuriating than going to a self service gas station. First, it takes at least twice as long, sometimes much more time than that. Second, the guy pumping gas is extremely likely to overfill because they always try to make the amount round. Third, they are typically not careful not to spill fuel on your paintwork and/or not tighten your gas cap enough to avoid a check engine light. Whenever I have to get gas in NJ, I attempt to do it myself if I can. I will at least finish the process.


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[hamr4267]

I get either, "Wow! I never knew that!", or glazed over eyes. The cashier at the grocery store the other night told me to put my phone number in the credit card reader. When I asked why she said it's for gas discounts. When I told her my car has a seven gallon gas tank and I've only put gas in it three tie=mes since the beginning of May she started asking questions.

You never know who is going to be interested.

I called my local power company asking for some info about rebates and such. The lady asked me what I drive, I told her a Honda Clarity. She'd never heard of it but seemed very interested. She had to write down the name of the car so she wouldn't forget. We chatted about the car and its features for 10 minutes.

 

[Mowcowbell]

It’s quite a stretch to reach that conclusion from the quote you attached.

However, the US generates roughly 20% of its electricity from burning coal. Approximately a dozen states generate at least 50% of their electricity from coal.

So, you are absolutely correct that electric cars do run on coal to a certain degree.

There are a few surprises in some states. In Oklahoma, almost dead center in petroleum production, 33% of the electric grid is powered by wind. A large percentage of the other 66% is from natural gas.

 

[Landshark]

That is even more infuriating than going to a self service gas station. First, it takes at least twice as long, sometimes much more time than that. Second, the guy pumping gas is extremely likely to overfill because they always try to make the amount round. Third, they are typically not careful not to spill fuel on your paintwork and/or not tighten your gas cap enough to avoid a check engine light.

I can only provide information on the experience in Oregon.

I rarely wait longer than the amount of time it would take to unbuckle a seat belt and get out of the car.

They always remove the nozzle after it shuts off, no topping.

In the past 10 years, I have never had an issue with spilled fuel on any of my vehicles or had a CEL due to a loose fuel cap.

 

[Landshark]

There are a few surprises in some states. In Oklahoma, almost dead center in petroleum production, 33% of the electric grid is powered by wind. A large percentage of the other 66% is from natural gas.

I stand corrected.

EIA data for 2018 shows that coal provided 27% of the electricity generated in the US, not 20%.
Natural gas was at 35%.
Nuclear at 19%.
Renewables at 17%.

Each situation is different which is why I mentioned national averages. We could analyze each state separately.

Someone charging in Michigan, for instance, will be using electricity that is generated from:
37% coal
26% natural gas
26% nuclear
8% renewables
Per 2018 EIA data.

It gets more complicated if we look at the amount of electricity that states with “clean” sources import from states with “dirty” sources.

Overall, we are charging our cars with 64% dirty fossil fuels and 19% nuclear, which is a fuel source that creates differing opinions.

 

[BeMurda]

I stand corrected.

EIA data for 2018 shows that coal provided 27% of the electricity generated in the US, not 20%.
Natural gas was at 35%.
Nuclear at 19%.
Renewables at 17%.

Each situation is different which is why I mentioned national averages. We could analyze each state separately.

Someone charging in Michigan, for instance, will be using electricity that is generated from:
37% coal
26% natural gas
26% nuclear
8% renewables
Per 2018 EIA data.

It gets more complicated if we look at the amount of electricity that states with “clean” sources import from states with “dirty” sources.

Overall, we are charging our cars with 64% dirty fossil fuels and 19% nuclear, which is a fuel source that creates differing opinions.

Natural gas is not dirty. As of 2017 it was actually the single biggest source of reduction in emissions in the US (replacement of coal with it).

 

[Ray B]

We could analyze each state separately.

If you are interested: https://www.insideevsforum.com/comm...ntal-aspects-of-clarity-phev.3511/#post-33985

The post at the top of the thread has some of the details. Here is the main takeaway...

Note - grey color states is where there is not much difference in CO2 emissions from gas powered cars vs grid powered cars. Nova Scotia is pink because they are close to transitioning from (mainly) coal to mainly hydroelectric power via a new power link to NFLD. This is a very basic picture, but there is a lot of details that are considered; the specific location within a state may have electricity supplied through a different grid sub-region which has a different emissions profile from the rest of the state.

Update - Oklahoma will potentially be green now on this map, given the current data. Possibly a few others have passed into grey or green as more plants switch from coal to natural gas and more renewables.

 

[ClarityBill]

This chart seems to provide 'Absolute proof that EVs DO NOT pollute less no matter what their source of electricity' (combining two threads).

I also question having New York in green: When I am getting about 65% of rated miles per KWH due to cabin heater requirements in winter. (30 EV range vs 47 rated). This extra use of electricity would generate more CO2 per mile, but is probably not accounted in the map: Seems like other northern areas should also experience this penalty.

 

[Ray B]

This chart seems to provide 'Absolute proof that EVs DO NOT pollute less no matter what their source of electricity' (combining two threads).

I may contribute more to that thread. I am hesitant though.

A few asterisks to keep in mind is that the grid in many states is changing quickly (some would say it is glacial change, but in other perspectives it is rapid). So this outcome was true from data published 1.5 years ago. But keep in mind that LCA's often take into account the data that exists and may not account for how the grid emissions may clean up over the life of the car. Or the person may move from a coal intense place to a hydroelectric place.

If one wanted to spin it to favor BEVs and PHEVs, one way to do that is to average the entire US grid and sleep well at night. If one wants to fight EVs they can point to the coal-rich regions and run the numbers in the worst-case to support their argument.

Like anything, there are shades of grey and context to be taken into account, and what is true today may be false next week.

As to your question on cold states like NY with lower EV range in the winter, that is certainly the case. In my post at the top of that thread I accounted for +20/-20% EPA estimates for the efficiency, which covers some of that, but you'd probably have to extrapolate more to account for more significant differences. But I haven't seen anyone quantify how mileage estimates change for HEV/ICE cars under the same frigid use conditions.

 

[Landshark]

Natural gas is not dirty. As of 2017 it was actually the single biggest source of reduction in emissions in the US (replacement of coal with it).

That depends on ones perspective of dirty.

Burning natural gas emits 117lbs of CO2/mBtus. (Million Btus)
Coal ~200lbs
Gasoline 157
Propane 139

Natural gas is less dirty than coal, which isn’t much of an accomplishment, but it certainly isn’t clean.

Berkeley, Ca recently banned natural gas in some new buildings, residential and commercial that are 3 stories or less. Other cities are considering doing the same. I wonder how many folks who advocated for this would be willing to have their electricity turned off that is generated from burning natural gas?

At the same time, I see municipal buses powered by natural gas, emblazoned with large letters that proclaim it to be a “Clean Air Vehicle”. So, it can be confusing.

 

[Landshark]

This chart seems to provide 'Absolute proof that EVs DO NOT pollute less no matter what their source of electricity' (combining two threads).

I realize that I am powerless in attempting to control the direction of this thread, and I have contributed to some topic drift, but I would like to see if we can steer it back to why people seem to be unaware of PHEV’s and what we can to to increase that awareness.

Thanks.

 

[Sandroad]

Last spring I was invited to participate as a presenter in a public forum on PHEVs. Other folks on the “stage” with me answering audience questions were a Volt owner, a Fusion Energi owner and an i3REX owner. Even though the audience were folks interested enough to attend to begin with, there were lots of very basic questions about charging, gas use, maintenance, and driver interaction with the car. In the mini “car show” of the 4 vehicles that followed the forum, IMHO the Clarity was liked the most overall because of the available space, interior design, and combination electric/gas range. There were potential buyers very disappointed the Clarity was not stocked in Michigan.

Then, in October I participated in the National Solar Home Tour with an open house at my home. Among other things, I highlighted the Clarity sitting in my garage as charging off one of my solar systems. Once again, the interest in a car that could run off the sun and also had a gas engine was strong, but pretty much ended when folks found out it could not be test driven and evaluated at any dealer in Michigan. (I even wore the Clarity T-shirt Insightman sent me.)

In both the forum and the open house I told everyone to hang on until 2020, when many new electrified vehicles will be hitting the market. I just hope they won’t all go to ZEV states.

 

[Kerbe]

It’s quite a stretch to reach that conclusion from the quote you attached.

However, the US generates roughly 20% of its electricity from burning coal. Approximately a dozen states generate at least 50% of their electricity from coal.

So, you are absolutely correct that electric cars do run on coal to a certain degree.

It seems that you missed my subtle use of sarcasm... I was responding to the fact that the quoted comment was about overreaction to misinformation/ignorance.

 

[Landshark]

WAIT! Electric cars run on coal? No WONDER they pollute so much more than real cars!

I wholly agree with the first part.. Unfortunately, precisely what you mention at the end are the kind of issues that keep many (most?) people from switching into EVs. People follow convenience (aka "law of the least effort"), so until these issues aren't solved (hopefully), ICE is not going away any time soon. PHEVs offer the best of both worlds although for some (economical?) reasons automakers are shunning (ex. Volt) them in spite of being a huge step on the right direction, just like 19th century early steamships kept masts and sails for many decades, just in case they ran out of coal in the middle of the ocean until eventually they didn't need that anymore, but we are not there yet.

It seems that you missed my subtle use of sarcasm... I was responding to the fact that the quoted comment was about overreaction to misinformation/ignorance.

Ok, I’ll accept that you used sarcasm to tie together a coal fired steamship and a coal powered EV.

Now can you explain the facts that show the quoted comment to be an overreaction to misinformation/ignorance?

Feel free to provide us with information on why it is that many people are unaware of the features of a PHEV as well.

 

[Kerbe]

Ok, I’ll accept that you used sarcasm to tie together a coal fired steamship and a coal powered EV.

Now can you explain the facts that show the quoted comment to be an overreaction to misinformation/ignorance?

Feel free to provide us with information on why it is that many people are unaware of the features of a PHEV as well.

That's very gracious of you. If you go back to your initial posting you'll recall that it mentions several such overreactions. Coutinpe's comment was about THAT posting so, in fact, my comment was a reaction to the two - I could not determine how to quote two different messages in one comment so elected to quote only the most recent. My brain works like that - it gathers information, looks for connections and then responds to those connected bits: It is not good at processing all information as discrete bits of unrelated data. Now, as to why you'd assume I had enough expertise to lecture on PHEV misunderstanding I don't know - but my own experience has more than proven, to me, that many people are unaware of the features of PHEVs. I've dealt first-hand with misinformed and/or uninformed dealerships and fielded many questions from people in public and at the two National Drive Electric Week events I attended earlier this year. My personal take is that the dealership industry and the general public have not been provided with significant information via advertising, nor have they been exposed to PHEVs in great enough numbers to pique their curiosity. For example: Despite my Clarity clearly broadcasting its AVAS sound effect, people often step in front of my moving Clarity in parking lots because they not only don't hear the sound of an ICE vehicle, they don't know how to interpret the sound that the Clarity DOES produce.