Toyota's hybrid strategy has to be rhetoric- hybrids are terrible.

Discussion in 'Toyota' started by 101101, Jan 15, 2018.

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  1. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    There is an article

    In this article if not spun Toyota announces that it will only have at most 12 percent full electrics 13 years from now. Maybe that is just kow tow to the Trump admin? No one should be doing that? This would suggest that Toyota has given up on the Chinese market which requires that level of 12% now and by 2030 will quite possibly be 100% electric. Hydrogen will never be credible because push behind it is it would be petrol derived, a problem there as it would have worse economic efficiency than petrol which already isn't economically viable and have the same pollution or close.

    The other thing that is going on here is a scam on speed and the potential of petrol cars to still compete performance wise. We saw it recently with McLaren trying to say its 720 hybrid or one of its 7 series beat a model S at the track and it is the new speed king. Actually it got spanked, because the only thing the model S was generally competing on was 0-60 and it still trashes the McLaren- so just a straight up lie. Then Acura with an even slower car another hybrid did the same thing, just a pure lie the S, smashes them. And these are stupid lies because enough of their customers will take these products to the tracks and lose. And now Toyota seems to be trying to do the same thing.

    Toyota puts out some more nuanced rhetoric here. But they of course know its not accurate. They say electric off the line with torque and then high rev range ICE duplicate power train to keep the acceleration going. But this is non sense as you just put a differently tuned electric motor in the front of car as with the roadster and the issue is resolved. Total apparent in the Roadster's stats. Totally apparent when super car hybrids have trouble with model S and even the X. Its true that some rally cars get less than 2.0 seconds 0-60 and dragsters (although electrics have to be coming) are much quicker still, but its nonsense to think that fat filled dual power train petrol shill cars will be competitive with roadster level electric tech, and that was just the base model roadster.

    Its very disappointing from Toyota, because if this is true it means more hobble ware. They will do something like make the 2022 electric Camry non-competitive. This isn't just market choice. It makes Toyota sound like a brand of gasoline.
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  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    I finally got around to reading the article and found:

    Japan’s biggest automaker unveiled a prototype sports car Friday that’s born from hybrid technology developed at the FIA World Endurance Championship. The two-seat GR Super Sport is on display at the Tokyo Auto Salon, the nation’s annual aftermarket trade show, which runs through the weekend.

    "An electric motor generates a tremendous amount of torque, while the high revs of an engine gives long acceleration,” Shigeki Tomoyama, a Toyota executive vice president and head of the GAZOO Racing in-house company responsible for sports car development, said after the unveiling of the new car. “By combining these two, there’s plenty of possibility to develop a new kind of fun-to-drive car that doesn’t currently exist.”

    This makes a lot of sense. The drag racing community loves to run a Tesla P100D against various gas powered supercars and over a 1/4 mile, the Tesla has been shaming them with one exception. The ending speed.

    The faster it goes, the Tesla is running out of acceleration due to reverse electro motive force. The faster a motor spins, the greater the reverse EMF which limits how much power can go into the motor. The fixes:
    1. Gears - so the motor can spin slower at higher speeds
    2. Higher voltage - Toyota did this with voltage doubling and tripling in the Prius family. Porsche announced an 800V Cayman (
    3. Field weakening - a sophisticated timing technique Toyota uses in the Prius to reduce the reverse EMF.
    I remember our 2003 Prius with its MG2 easily scooted across stop light controlled intersection fast enough to change lanes before the other gassers could catch up. That 15 year old car had impressive, low speed torque as did every electrified Prius and our BMW i3-REx. The cruel irony is Prius control laws limited acceleration that could have given the Prius a much better reputation on the street.

    All in all, I found the article a good summary of where Toyota is headed with blended, performance hybrids. IMHO, about time. I'm just glad to have a Prius and BMW i3-REx plugin hybrids.

    Bob Wilson
  4. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    That is utter crap! Everything Toyota is saying there is dishonest and beyond pathetic even if they plan to go full BEV.
    They're simply lying. You just do what Tesla did in the second roadster, its a differently calibrated electric motor up front that blends in after the motors in the back handle the launch with more HP. It will destroy any ICE formulation. You could do an electric dragster if you wanted. There are certainly ICE vehicles that are faster than the 2nd roadster now but they are top fuel dragsters. 2nd roadster is faster than Formula one now (in base model) and will definitely be faster at launch. Formula 1 are 10 million dollar vehicles. If you look at the 10K nm on the Tesla roadster that's getting into dump truck range torque. In practical terms new BEV is 10x better than ICE, ICE is topped out. BEV was around at the birth of ICE, but ICE is like a steam engine against mag lev.

    ICE is simply dead obsolete, it will never perform and hybrids are beyond stupid. They are worse than trying to put a black berry in in an iPhone X. People should simply work with their governments to tell these stupid firms that they will start doing BEV tomorrow or their profits will be confiscated and if that isn't enough they will will be injuncted from markets. There profit relative to the stakes couldn't matter less.
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    I'm used to engineers having honest differences of opinion and then explaining the basis of their design. Even when they've stated something wrong, I've known they honestly believed what they were claiming. So I simply used other means to help them.
    I've seen Model S, X, and 3 delivery numbers for January. Do you have a good source for how many 'second roadster' were sold in January?
    This blends very nicely with ICE power and range.
    Curious as we have two plugin hybrids on the driveway: 2014 BMW i3-REx and 2017 Prius Prime. They both fully meet our requirements. For example, my family took a trip to Stillwater Oklahoma from Huntsville Alabama, 700 mi (1120 km) each way. We did over a long, holiday weekend by driving ~70 miles and refilling the gas tank in 5-10 minutes, roughly 10 tanks each way. It took 20 hours each way. The battery has roughly the same range.

    Using, there were not enough chargers to make the trip. Worse, charging our 2014 BMW i3-REx is not terribly fast:
    • 120VAC L1 -> 5% SOC per hour
    • 240VAC L2 -> 20% SOC per hour
    • 50kW CCS -> 100% SOC per hour
    Only there weren't any CCS chargers along the route. Worse, CCS charging would have added 10 hours to the 20 hours it took to drive each way. The L2 chargers were further apart than the battery range and would have added 50 hours to the 20 hours of driving.
    Luckily the USA is pretty much an open market country where individuals have the freedom to make their own choices. It means we have to use persuasion and individual self interest. As a general rule of thumb, advocating force and calling people 'liars' tends to be ineffective.

    Bob Wilson
    Domenick and WadeTyhon like this.
  6. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    The dishonesty displayed by Toyota here is too much. The motivations for their dishonesty on this have been explored else where. But its reprehensible, especially in light of their contribution with Prius which was the Trojan horse electric and with their getting Tesla started.
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  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    That is a dang shame. No one cares about your angst. You'll have to live the remainder of your life frustrated that many of us rejoice in your pain, frustration, and agony.

    Please, tell us more about your depression and disappointment. We find it quiet enjoyable.

    Bob Wilson
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2018
  9. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    Keep smoking the tail pipes.
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    I’m impressed. A short and to the point post.

    Bob Wilson
  11. Gasper

    Gasper New Member

    I wish Toyota well on their strategy, but I have no problem switching brands, when time comes and wheels fall of my Prius. :D

    GR Super Sport is a similar car to the actual TS050 LeMans race car, it's a concept that it will actually race in WEC in 2021 when new rules come in force. 0-60 is meaningless, this car is build for cornering speed and acceleration at high speeds with no overheating issues in endurance racing, it's a completely different category of a car as the Tesla Roadster.
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  13. app's321

    app's321 Member

    Field weakening has been around for Decades in Electric vehicles for at least 4 decades. Believe a constant variable transmission can work well ? Maybe one draw back of the EV is the tremendous weight of the Batteries. Maybe around 1200 lbs for the Tesla 1800 lbs for the F150. To me the Hybrid makes total sense for any driving of near 4 or more hours each day. The EV's are at Max before that at interstate speeds.
  14. Sam G

    Sam G New Member

    FWIW, I consider my RAV4 prime to be extremely practical. With 40+ miles electric range I can do all of my regular business without tapping into gas, but when I need to go on a road-trip, I can enjoy a realistic 500-600 miles without refilling. Yeah, Tesla may be able to charge in 20 min, but try sitting in a car do nothing for 20 min with kids. That is a strong "no" for me. Having PHEV lets me not use gas in normal situation and yes use gas for longer trips without range anxiety.

    As far as power goes, R4P is very nimble. I am not a racing enthusiast, but this car has by far best acceleration of all cars I owned. No argument, Tesla can probably do better, but for all my needs it's more than I need.

    Also, I live in the state where they won't let you fill gas tank yourself, and every visit to a gas station is an exercise in humiliation for me. Not having to wait for some stoner to oblige filling you up is a big benefit for me.

    If Toyota offered me a PHEV minivan, I'd buy on the spot.
    onix and R P like this.
  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    They don't have cell phones?

    Bob Wilson
  16. Sam G

    Sam G New Member

    No offense, but I was just sharing my point of view. I am not really looking for parenting advice
  17. onix

    onix New Member

    Agree with you here. The R4P is very practical. It’s not for someone looking to race.

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