Request for data from OBDII using Android App "Car Scanner" from 0vZ (Only)

Discussion in 'Clarity' started by Cash Traylor, Apr 22, 2020.

  1. Cash Traylor

    Cash Traylor Active Member Subscriber

    Greetings,

    If you have time and these items, I would greatly appreciate some data. I can only compare my car to itself and I think I found a BMS variable but need to compare it to some other vehicles of varying age/SOH. Anyone with a really new car that can report this with a recent BCT would be great - the OBDII was only $12 on Amazon. Anyone (@StickWare ) that has a really high use vehicle would have great data too!

    I am working on a project and don't want this to take anyone really any time or spending any money. If you have an OBDII wifi or bluetooth scanner and an Android based phone or device, can you download Car Scanner ELM OBD2 from 0vZ (or update to latest if you have it). Since the PID and calculation formula vary app to app, this is the only way for me to know the Clarity HV data is "apples to apples" so Torque Pro etc won't work. The free version should work fine for this.
    • Use Honda Honda/Acura Hybrids connection profile
    • Turn your car to the second accessory mode (second press of power button without break) and be sure to have your headlights and air conditioning off (completely).
    • Use the "All Sensors" option and you can enter the search to type in Battery to reduce the list to what I would like to know.
    • Confirm your HV Battery Current is at or below 1 amp or wait for that to stabilize below 1 amp for your readings. On this (-) reports are charging, (+) reports are discharging.
    Please report the following:
    1. Year of Car and Mileage
    2. BCT "If Known" and age and mileage of that report (skip if you don't have it)
    3. From Car Scanner (make sure you report values under these names only) There are other Battery and HV info reported that are under different formulas.
      1. Hybrid/EV Battery System Voltage (V)
      2. Hybrid Battery Pack Remaining Life (%) (this should be the same as your HondaLink Reported State of Charge)
      3. Battery Cell Max State of Charge (%)
    It would be awesome (if you are still driving anywhere) to report two data points.
    • Need your full charge (charger stopped) data
    • Some other point in the middle or lower range of charge
    My car reported 53.8Ah at 3750 miles in 2018, then 49.6Ah at 13327 (I unfortunately do not have these data points for those times.

    For my car the report for this would be:
    2018, 15400 miles:
    • 342.9v, 100%, 96.27%
    • 335.6v, 90%, 88.5%
    I am going to get more low SOC numbers once I can leave the house again...

    If you can participate, my sincere thanks, if not - no big deal and thank you for reading.

    Best wishes,

    Cash

    P.S. Tweaking the equations used on this and another PID project.
    https://app.calculoid.com/#/calculator/78363

    Wonder if I ask to go test drive a new Clarity with OBDII tucked in my hand would attract any attention.... o_O
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2020
  2. Danks

    Danks Active Member

    Do you have a link to the OBDII device on Amazon?
     
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  3. Cash Traylor

    Cash Traylor Active Member Subscriber

    Sure, however I really didn't want to suggest anyone spend money on this. Almost any OBDII adapter will work with the Car Scanner Software, it is really only the software that needs to be "standardized" any ELM327 compatible one will work.

    Here is the cheap one I used before my panda. This should work fine, it works for 95% of everything I am using it for:

    https://www.amazon.com/Kitbest-Bluetooth-Scanner-Adapter-Diagnostic/dp/B01BY2CK32

    Thank you,
    Cash
     
  4. MrFixit

    MrFixit Active Member

    @Cash Traylor
    Here is what I can provide at the moment...

    1/3/2018 Purchased Clarity, Initial PDI BCT was 55.1 Ah
    4/22/2020 - 13911 miles, 315.08V, 60% remaining, 63.78% Cell Max

    I'll gather up more data going forward as I can.
     
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  5. leop

    leop Member

    2018 Clarity Touring, purchased 2/24/2018, built 10/2017,
    no initial PDI BPC recorded,
    BPC, 10/16/2018, 2,307 miles: 54.6 Ah

    4/23/2020; 6,375 miles: 309.56V, 49% remaining, 54.98% cell max
    4/24/2020; 6.375 miles: 342.67V, 99% remaining, 95.95% cell max

    LeoP
     
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  6. jpkik96

    jpkik96 New Member

    Cash - I have been using Torque Pro but this app seems really powerful for the recording feature and the measurement of "Battery Cell Max State of Charge". Do you use the Pro version? Thanks for tracking!

    2018 Clarity Touring - Leased June 2018; Build Date March 2018 No BCT data provided

    ChargePoint Level 2 Charger used to charge daily

    4/24/2020 - 30,804 miles

    Before Charge:

    305.78, 36%, forgot to measure!

    After Full Charge:

    342.66V, 99%, 95.91%
     
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  7. Cash Traylor

    Cash Traylor Active Member Subscriber

    Yes, I supported the developer with the Pro version, it is cheap. I tried a lot of apps (for Android) and liked this one the best for Hybrid features. The data seems to agree with direct measurements I have made and also dug out with my panda. Thank you for participating! I am trying to gather enough data to get a WAG that approximates the HV Pack wear level. Cheers, Cash
     
  8. KentuckyKen

    KentuckyKen Well-Known Member

    @Cash Traylor , I drank the Apple KoolAide and use an iPhone which I understand TorquePro won’t work with.
    I do have a Kindle Fire. Is it possible for me to get TorquePro to work with that?
    I’d really like to get some data for you and for myself.
    Thanks.
     
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  9. Cash Traylor

    Cash Traylor Active Member Subscriber

    @KentuckyKen

    The app is what is important assuming you have an ELM327. All my data is calibrated with Car Scanner (free or Pro) from developer 0vZ. Each software package can use slightly different PID formulas (even open SAE ones), as I have found slight variation in at least three I tried. As such, since Car Scanner will get the HV Battery Data I need, and the free Torque Pro will not, I chose that to go with.

    ***** HOWEVER, although I cannot test this as I don't have an iphone, according to his site he supports IOS!!! I didn't realize this!
    https://www.carscanner.info/author/overzealus/

    However, I just borrowed my daughter's ipad (yep, I'm having one of THOSE brain days...) and tried it. Software works and looks GREAT - EXCEPT the OBDII scanner I recommended above from Amazon for $12 will NOT work with IOS... So, YES the Car Scanner software works as indicated by @Alex800st below, however only with a different OBDII plug! Just an FYI for anyone looking at this. The ad for the OBDII that I listed on Amazon does say that it only supports Android and Windows, not IOS - so that is fair. The data should be good as again, the scanner just reads the codes and streams the data, the software is what does the interpretation. :):cool::D

    Cheers,

    Cash
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2020
  10. Alex800st

    Alex800st Member

    2020, 9230 km:
    • 342.23v, 99%, 95.65%
    Using Apple version or car scanner.
     

    Attached Files:

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  11. Alex800st

    Alex800st Member

    2020, 9330 km, No battery left:
    • 297.36v, 11%, 22.79%
    What is that last parameter means, "batt cell max state of charge"?
     
  12. Cash Traylor

    Cash Traylor Active Member Subscriber

    @Alex800st

    One of the reasons I wanted some data from others is that I currently think that is the BMS tracked cell capacity (scaling factor). As you know, we do not have "access" to the full battery capacity (all 55Ah). EV Manufacturers buffer the pack to increase its useful life (unlike cell phone/laptop manufacturers that want max power, and prefer your battery fails in two years so you buy a new one).

    The current theory that appears to be bearing out is that we cannot go below about 20% SOC and cannot charge above ~96% maximum. The question is, does this change as the pack ages. Battery University posits this and it is seen in other manufacturers of EV's. I cannot test the BEV Clarity obviously. The question is whether Honda is doing this on PHEV's (not Hybrids, but true PHEVs). If they are, then the rate of degradation is nowhere close to linear, as they are hedging their bets to keep drivers happy with EV range, and have the pack make warranty. However, once the HV pack is fully "scaled" it will begin degrading very quickly. This was discussed in another thread and it got me to thinking (I know, that's a fire hazard). Then Ray's work brought me here to this project. There are a lot of really cool people on this forum, that seem happy to dig way into a car for no other reason than plain old edification. As such I wanted to test this hypothesis. There is a lot of evidence that Honda is NOT scaling the pack significantly, as we are seeing older (boy is that relative, max of two years really) cars showing a reduction in achieved EV range. If they were scaling the pack, then range (not estimated but actual) would remain fairly constant at this point in the life of these cars. However, if a new vehicle (with a BCT of 55 Ah) presents different scaling than one with 10% or more loss, then we have an answer.

    I needed to make sure what I was seeing was actually scaling, as the battery aged (I can only look at my BMS readings and cannot see the actual software). It is not "specific" to our Clarity as the PID used and the math to calculate the result is based on the SAE Open PID list. Honda has a BUNCH of proprietary PIDs... HV Pack capacity is currently one of them. However, I am trying to work on a prediction model based on the work of @Ray B , and myself (the online calculator). This would optimally let someone see what their expected battery life would be based on their use, and be able (if they so wished) to put in a couple of data points easily obtainable by a cheap OBDII and a watt meter on the OEM EVSE and get a "EV pack status" that is good enough. Dealers that understand the BCT are proving problematic, and a lot of owners may not even live near a dealer, let alone one that speaks Clarity. This is a pet project for me to learn a few things, and maybe provide a tool that others can use.

    So far my model is pretty close for near term estimates. However, like most models (our current crisis serves to demonstrate this very well) it becomes less accurate the further out you try to run the estimate. I have room for more parameters to make it more accurate. This BMS scaling is part of that.

    I may be barking up the wrong tree as one of the issues may require tying this data to a current BCT (the hard to get part). I thought about using Ray's model as part of this user report - but that is recursive and makes my predictions based on another "guess." Right now we have a dartboard. I would prefer a slide-rule. But that is me, I tend to have fanatical attention to detail and that is not a good thing in an information vacuum like this where Honda is keeping secrets.

    So, simply put it appears that:
    1. Hybrid Battery Pack Remaining Life (%) = Is Honda's allowable and user reported EV fuel
    2. Battery Cell Max State of Charge (%) = The actual HV Battery pack percent SOC full range
    3. The voltage is needed to actually mark the scaling point absent a real BCT report for the same report time
    The question is if the BMS is scaling this range and I need pack voltage to gauge that between reports based on what we think we know about the battery manufacturer. I had hoped to have a module on order by now but missed my opportunity (got distracted with covid and home schooling...) I will have to wait until a good representative module shows up on the market again to get it and take it apart for analysis to finally get firm data on the cells. Then the BMS software behavior will finally be known to me (hard evidence versus interpolation) and that would be a cool thing.


    Thank you for participating!

    Cash
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2020
  13. Cash Traylor

    Cash Traylor Active Member Subscriber

    It appears I should have specified, in my request above, that everyone send a report for their EV pack when EMPTY (0 range left), MID-POINT (around half bars or the HV Charge cutoff range), and then at FULL CHARGE when the EVSE cuts off. However, I know that some people do not fully charge, and some do not fully drain their packs and the mid-point is often inconvenient to get (may be mid trip) or they may not like to run the HV Charge mode.
    So.... I can work with anything submitted and as they say, "beggars can not be choosers."

    I only need about 10-15 reports to confirm this. However I also need about 5 reports with valid BCT's from vehicles with statistically significant variation (at least >10% difference in capacity and three ranges on the %,%,voltage reports. So you see my problem.... However, again - it is a pet project.

    Anyone willing to do this, I need a few EV full and empty reports, the mid point is great but not as important for the scaling determination.

    Thank again!

    Beggar,

    Cash
     
  14. MrFixit

    MrFixit Active Member

    Cash:

    I have been working on this...
    I will get some more data tomorrow and plan to send all of it here in one batch sometime tomorrow afternoon.
    It will include 0%, 100% and some in-between...

    An observation so far...
    When I have an EV range of 0 miles, the Hybrid Battery Pack Remaining Life is ~10%, while the "Battery Cell Max State of Charge" (BCMSOC) is ~20%.
    On the other extreme (full charge), I get 100% for the "remaining life" and ~96% for the Cell Max.

    Is it possible that this 96% Cell Max (with a full charge) represents a 4% loss of battery capacity from 'new'? ie: if new capacity is 54.5 Ah, is this alluding to a current capacity of 96% of that, or 52.3 Ah ?

    After my trip tomorrow, I'll ship the data into this thread for your amusement.
     
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  15. Cash Traylor

    Cash Traylor Active Member Subscriber

    @MrFixit

    As far as I know, right now that 4% is the charge potential you cannot reach (you cannot "fully" charge the battery). It is still not certain that the scaling is based on these as the limits. You have to mark where the voltage points are for them to make any sense really. We can only use voltage to gauge this, as we cannot see what the coulomb counter in the BMS is seeing (yet, that would be the magic as that is where the BCT comes from). So, no - right now that is a SOC point, not a percentage capacity lost value.

    The HV Pack life remaining of 10% versus the BCMSOC of 20% is also a "user experience" number I think. Honda never allows the pack to go to zero for two separate reasons. First is that the Clarity is really not capable of "low gear" acceleration without the traction motor, and was not designed to do so. The battery is always there to at least get it moving, then the ICE/Gen can take over the lower loads of the "higher gears" of driving. Climbing a hill can get tricky, but that is for another discussion and why they warn about extended hills/mountains with a low battery several times in the two manuals they offer. The second reason they do not allow the pack to discharge fully, is to protect the longevity of the battery chemically/physically. So, the driver sees the 10% not as EV driving range, but that the battery is not dead - and you can still accelerate. The 20% is the here-to-fore hidden, but suspected number, that is the actual SOC protected minimum charge range to keep the battery from killing itself. That should be around 20%. However, the scaling can happen at either end, or both. Chemically it is better, if you are designing a BMS scaling system, to allow a higher state of charge than allow a lower state. Higher SOC voltages are only most detrimental over time (leaving a pack 100% charged, at 4.2 v/cell for days or weeks isn't good - but in our cars we tend to charge and drive/discharge in close temporal proximity). However fully discharging a pack to 0%, especially under a load (like a traction motor) is immediately detrimental to the longevity of a battery (in this manner LIB's are not much different that PbA batteries). So it would make sense, from a OEM warranty (loss) perspective, to scale the top before scaling the bottom, or at least "weight" the scaling that way. So, if we see the voltage for reported SOC remain the same but the BCMSOC move to the same as the HV SOC (100%/100%) then that is likely what is happening. At least that is the theory...

    If someone with oh, I don't know - maybe 100,000+ miles on a Clarity could report some of these values, then that may shed some light on this from a much higher flight level point of view! Hmm, hmmm - um @StickWare can I send you a ELM OBDII probe? :cool::D

    Beggar (for this thread),

    Cash
     
  16. MrFixit

    MrFixit Active Member

    @Cash Traylor

    StickWare is a poor example because he admittedly has driven nearly all of those miles on gas.
    He probably has relatively few 'cycles' on the battery, so his battery is likely not really any 'older' than the rest of us !
     
  17. Cash Traylor

    Cash Traylor Active Member Subscriber

    @Mr. Fixit,

    Actually, I believe his vehicle is a really good candidate, as it has been continually in acceleration use (stop and go which are high current loads) with the HV pack at it's most vulnerable (low SOC). The majority of his driving was with the pack at 20% Cell SOC or less, this is the operating range that pack aging is accelerated. If you are in "normal" operation of driving along and "range extending" using the ICE/Gen that is often at cruise. Of course there will be many stop and goes once EV is empty, but Honda likely estimated that to be a lower percentage of owners use of a PHEV at the "end of their day." As many are fond of saying, the Clarity was designed to be used as an EV with the ICE for addressing low destination charging infrastructure, and range anxiety prone folks that are still concerned about a BEV. Since he basically used it as a hybrid, without a BMS really designed as such (they are programmed to try to maintain around 50% SOC), I am VERY interested in a BCT for his car. He may have a battery that is aged far beyond what we are expecting. Honda no longer cares about it - his warranty for the HV pack is expired. Plus, with him not using a normal charge/discharge cycle, it may not be scaling at all based on coulombs the BMS software is counting. You can think of this like the old adage of how to "reset" your laptop battery gauge by fulling charging and fully discharging it a couple of times.

    I am speculating a lot here - without a report with actual numbers (including a BCT) this is just a WAG at best for his Clarity.

    Cash
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2020
  18. coutinpe

    coutinpe Active Member

    Hi Alex. Where did you get your Apple-compatible OBDII? Is that one of the cheapos sold on Amazon the CarScanner app warns against? Do you know if this app works on CarPlay? Thanks.
     
  19. Alex800st

    Alex800st Member

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  20. coutinpe

    coutinpe Active Member

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