Parts of Munro's Report that don't seem credible.

Discussion in 'General' started by 101101, Apr 29, 2018.

To remove this ad click here.

  1. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    Monro says the chassis was amateur because it should have been lighter and used different material choices and been less complex.

    This is contradicted by the following.

    1. Amateur's did not work on the model 3. Tesla had its pick of the industry and took advantage of it. The people they chose, to borrow Sandy's language, literally have been mopping the floor with the competition at the high end of the market where the most intensive tech and the most ego is involved. Tesla used that track record and the same people with the Model 3. These same people put even more into the Model 3 as Musk has alluded the Model 3 was the most difficult vehicle Tesla has yet made, more challenging apparently than then X or the Semi. And if it means anything there were certainly a lot of PhDs in the mix from the best schools. Tesla actually did the X 2x because simply grafting onto a generic skate didn't work out.

    2. A bad chassis would impact handling even with a good tuner and Munro admits the handling is great.

    3. Too much weight would impact range, but Model 3 is class leading and by a very large margin in the higher spec which will only improve with the dual motor- suspect this means we will see updated S and X shortly.

    4. The differences are more credibly due as Tesla says to higher safety standards- more tellingly Munro says there is nothing cut rate in the Model 3, but presumably he had to please his normal customers with some sort of token criticism. Also Munro seems to be saying that Tesla should have cut corners on sound deadening gel use- but how when NVH will stand out in quieter electrics?

    5. Also contradicting the narrative of a defective or amateur chassis is the motive for suggesting Tesla would have gained from contracting out. You see this is a huge competitive weakness of the ICE makers and they are trying to accuse Tesla of not engaging in their weakness. They are in the silly habit of not really building or designing anything but the obsolete ICE engines or simply picking like some sort of vitamin label builder what will go into a another wise braded but still generic formula of vitamins. It is the ICE makers who have drifted from their craft where Tesla has been doing from-the-ground-up work, the kind of work that would appeal to an artist and/or scientist. So this is another case of accusing Tesla of not having the ICEs makers weaknesses and trying to paint that as a weakness to hide their own vulnerabilities.

    6. The chassis may actually be one of the very best parts of the Model 3 design, after all Tesla gets highest safety marks and they are aiming to bring a level of safety not seen at this level of car. But the petrol industry being all about fear and terror and trying to spread it tries to say in every way it can that leaving petrol is unsafe- this is another example of that pattern, any change from them or what they are comfortable with (which has been broke for 70 years) is deemed unsafe and unwise. That chassis may be the core of the true and corrective narrative that tells actual story.

    7. Part of praise for the electronic systems and emphasis may have to do with knowing ahead of time that Keller would be leaving Tesla. But really, Keller did his work on the model 3 to establish a foundation for the hardware. He is a chip guy and Intel seems to be falling behind in its microprocessor and GPU gig and in line with recent headlines this may be due to the foundation Keller laid at AMD- see the new reviews of AMD products and the damage to Intel- vice some issue at Tesla. Intel also seems hugely focused more than anything on autonomy now so it likely sees Tesla as a competitor more than AMD is presently. Maybe it thinks Google will be its new partner the way Microsoft was for software, despite Google tending to do its own chips.

    My take is Munro was skeptical, this blind-sided him professionally in that he really didn't see it coming and is needing the proper time to process what is happening. His skill set and his companies skill set will still be very valuable but they need to re-tool. Probably blindsided because he was too focused on his traditional business and too busy. But turns out they came to him because he had the full tool box even if it needs an over haul. Looking at what Tesla and Silicon Valley will do to automotive is like looking at aerospace coming into the automotive space to a degree that far eclipsed GM's purchase of Hughes. It will fit perfectly with Lilium and what comes next. Evaluating EVs will be more like evaluating air planes. But also understand that cars will come to be made like chips. A new EV is not a cell phone it is a chip, this is part of why you see Intel trying to take from Tesla. Almost everything will come to be made like chips in the better sense of the meaning. Munro still has time to correct these flaws in response to Tesla.
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    Have you seen the report to verify the data points? Munro had an open house at his shop last week that he invited automotive journalists to visit the cars (1 is still together) I say a couple reports where he actually showed journalists exactly what he was talking about were the heavy parts...

    You seem to want to take credit for his praise, and discount his critique... I would say the electronics are the think he is least competent about, but the body in white is where his career has been spent.

    The upper control arm they show in the video is way overweight, look at the design, and then look at the Cadillac CTS-V which is a heavier, more powerful, faster, better handling car, but yet the same component is about 1/3 the weight on the Cadillac?? Hmmm?
  4. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    First you clearly didn't read what I wrote before you responded. Second you're obviously not aware that he corrected that, (if you're referring to what I think you're referring to) on the control arm where people said it was a "kludge' he corrected and said it was a weight balancing unit
    not just a hunk of lead, that it was there to to correct for when the AWD version comes, so across both versions there is balancing in tuning.

    The only parts of his report that matters (not the FUD) is where he said ignore the Model 3 at your peril.

    I think the parts he was critical of may be some of the very best areas in the design for the reasoning read through the OP.
  5. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    I am referring to the control arm, and the log of iron is a Mass Damper for vibration harmonics of the front motor (not on this car) That control arm was stamped steel, and then overmolded for?? Usually companies just design the part right, no need for a mass damper, or overmolding, as that just adds weight, complexity and cost... from reading your comments you are obviously just a Tesla homer that does not know anything about actual car construction or design.

    Nobody has to worry about Tesla, they have enough of their own problems and cannot get out of their own way.
  6. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Yes, several comments to one or more current articles on this subject over on the InsideEVs news site bring into serious question Munro's knowledge of state-of-the-art electronics. I think it's best to discount those comments from him. Tesla's cars have newer, and better, electronics than he's used to seeing from Detroit automakers. Well, that's no surprise since Tesla was founded by a couple of Silicon Valley guys. What Munro thinks is remarkable may be perfectly ordinary to Silicon Valley.

    On the other hand, a lot of Munro's analysis appears to be strongly biased against Tesla. That shouldn't be surprising, since Detroit automakers butter his bread, and Tesla is a direct threat to those businesses!

    As an example of just how extreme his bias is, at one point he complains about the panel gaps around the trunk lid. He claims "you can barely get your fingernail in" on one side and "you can almost get your thumb in" on the other side! I have taken a couple of screen shots from that portion of his video; see if you can tell which side is which just from the photos!



    He also wastes a lot of the video making absurd complaints about safety concerns over emergency responders dealing with the high-voltage system of the car. Last I heard, there were no reports of emergency responders being electrocuted when dealing with a wrecked Tesla car (nor any wrecked plug-in EV from any other auto maker, either). I've also seen comments from people saying they are emergency responders, and that they are trained to deal with situations like that one. That training includes looking up the safety procedures provided by the manufacturer.
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    I cannot get a good shot of the gaps you are talking about, I think we just have to buy the report to really know what they are talking about. But I have seen on my friends car (Space X employee, very early build) the gaps are all over the place. Some tight, some lose, and some what I call a carrot reveal as they vary. Unfortunately he will not ,let me photograph the car as it is part of the purchase arrangement, but you can see on James Cooke's new video where the owner for the car says its really poor quality. Its really horrendous. I think calling it a Kia from the 90's is very insulting to Kia after seeing this video.
  9. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    That's because they are, pretty obviously, more imagined by the reviewer than really there. If they were not mostly imaginary, then we would be able to see the difference in the screen shots I posted. The screen shots that are from the section of the video where he claims to be pointing out how bad the panel gaps are!

    Anecdotal evidence from one single unit means very little. You can pick just about any model of car from just about any auto maker, and find a bad example. Problems with individual cars are why we have lemon laws. Talking about Tesla's cars as if somehow they're expected to all be perfect, just underscores how all too many people are so ready to jump all over Tesla for what is perfectly normal in the auto industry.

    Now, the review of the Model 3 did note some fit-and-finish issues, so I'm certainly willing to believe that is more of a problem with the Model 3 than it is with some of the better established auto makers. Toyota in particular has been praised for its panel gap quality.

    But in the case I posted pictures for, who are you gonna believe? This guy, or your own eyes? Maybe there is an "issue" that a professional auto reviewer would see with the panel gaps on that car, but the ordinary car buyer isn't going to notice them, and even if pointed out, he wouldn't care.

    I think your anti-Tesla bias is showing, and showing pretty strongly. :(
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
  10. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    Come on Mr. Tesla defender, lets at least be objective. Yo yo is taking his Tesla Model 3 all over the world to show it off, and he is a huge Tesla fan, and daily blogger on Tesla sites, if he gives Tesla a critique it is coming from a position of knowledge and experience. James Cooke is also a Tesla owner, and fan, he is just being objective, did you actually watch and listen to the video??? These are Tesla people, not haters. You said before that you do not own a Tesla, so you think searching the net you have any real evidence of quality either way? Have you looked over or driven a model 3? I have done both, and with early build cars, and also a February built car. I get that you love Tesla and feel they can do no wrong... I am not a Tesla lover and much more objective about all cars including the ones I own. You mention Edmonds review about the Model 3, what about Car and driver, Consumer reports, and almost all of them, have mentioned at least some quality issues, and some of these are very pro Tesla publications.

    You wonder why I ordered an I-Pace instead of a Tesla... Go watch the same publications reviews of the I-Pace and take a look at Jaguars video giving background into the test and validation program they spent 18 months putting the car through with over 200 prototypes built. I made a very informed, and not emotional decision, like most decisions I make.

    And see what Tesla tubers said about it

  11. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    You're just highlighting your own anti-Tesla bias there. If I thought Tesla could "do no wrong" then I wouldn't have mentioned the review. I think is much more objective and honest in its reviews than most if not all car review magazines and other car review websites.

    The fact that you think those are "very pro Tesla publications" again merely highlights your own negative bias. None of those publications are noticeably biased in favor of Tesla over other auto makers. Also, please cite anywhere in any post I have ever made, at any time on InsideEVs, where I assert that Tesla doesn't have any quality issues. Good luck with that -- you won't find it.

    However, since you brought up the subject of Consumer Reports: They can't make their minds up about whether or not to recommend Tesla cars. More to the point, they alternately praise Tesla cars and then trash them, apparently to gin up controversy and increase magazine sales. I have lost all respect for CR because of their flip-flopping all over the place about Tesla's cars, and their lack of consistency or even coherence on their reviews of Tesla cars.

    Case in point: Here's a picture of one of their ratings summaries for a Tesla car:


    Notice that they give an overall "Poor" rating for the 2015 model year, despite their breakdown categories having not one single "poor" rating, only one single category having a "fair" rating, and every other category having a better rating than "fair", with "excellent" the most common rating! WTF? How the heck do you get "poor" out of averaging together many different ratings, every single one of which is better than poor?

    I may not be a "car guy", but I don't need to be to understand that Consumer Reports' ratings for cars (or at least Tesla cars) are biased and arbitrary!

    As far as the other sources you mentioned: Sure, you can cherry-pick some of the more negative reviews of the Model 3. And if I wanted to, I could mention the very first driving review of the Model 3 from any auto magazine. Is it a positive review? Here's a hint, it starts out this way:

    The Tesla Model 3 is here, and it is the most important vehicle of the century.

    Full article at Motor Trend: "Exclusive: Tesla Model 3 First Drive Review"

    Is it cherry-picking to note that's the very first review I ever saw from any professional reviewer? No, I don't think so. It's also the most positive -- almost embarrassingly so. I'd never cite that as an "average" or representative review. But it's every bit as meaningful as any one of the other, more negative reviews you mentioned!

    No, why would I?

    For the record, my first comment on the I-Pace was that it was nice to see some auto maker finally giving Tesla some real competition.
    Marcel_g and 101101 like this.
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    I do not feel that I have "anti" Tesla bias, as i said, I am not a Tesla lover for a multitude of reasons, I am however objective and regularly give Tesla credit for what they do well. As for the publications its funny that you mention the Motor Trend article that is basically a paid Tesla advertisement. The driving was all done with Franz in the car, and a lot of contractural limitations about what could be written (it also appears to be a specially prepared car, as the gaps, etc look great compared to the other pre production cars). Their follow up review is a bit more objective. The Model 3 has had very few what I call "clean reviews" which is a review where no quality issues are mentioned. There is no need to cherry pick, I just try to take in all the information, and make an informed decision about anything. Consumer Reports has battled with Tesla, back and forth. They say something good, Elon retweets it, they say something negative and Elon rebuts it. It reminds me of his battles with the IIHS over Model S crash tests. I am sure you know the story about that...
  14. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    You're entirely correct to say that the car driven for that review was the personal car of a top Tesla exec, and so yes, we have reason to believe it received more careful quality control when it was being made and/or was given more care to fix minor problems after it rolled off the assembly line.

    But your suggestion that the review is "basically a paid Tesla advertisement" isn't merely biased, it's so insulting and contrary to facts that it borders on libel. Tesla, pretty much alone of all auto makers, does not pay for ads in car magazines, does not lavish professional auto reviewers with "swag", and does not send them on paid junkets... as is the norm with other auto makers.

    See the exposé from Jalopnik: "This Is Everything Wrong With Auto Journalism In One Facebook Thread"

    You are correct to say that Motor Trend's follow-up article was less effusive in its praise of the Model 3, but overall it was still very positive and still not what I would call a representative review.

    Personally, I prefer objective reviews that give us both the "pros" and the "cons" about cars. That's one reason I have so much respect for; they are not afraid to pull their punches. They don't avoid or soft-pedal saying negative things so as not to get their advertisers torqued off at them, as auto review magazines generally do.

    Neither does show the negative bias towards EVs which Munro and other Detroit-based reviewers do. In the case of Munro's review of the Tesla Model 3, an extremely negative bias!

    But the silver lining in that is that it just shows how much Detroit fears the growing competition from Tesla and other EV makers. And they have good reason for that fear!

    Go Tesla!
  15. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

  16. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    Tesla does not as far as we know pay for advertisements, however they reward their owners with referral gifts, in the Last 24 Months Bjorn Nyland has "won" a 150K Model X and a 250K Roadster, and numerous other prizes. Where do those expenses go in the P and L statement SG&A? Ben Sullins 250K roadster, Kim (Like Tesla) 250K roadster and A 175K model X Zac and Jesse 250K roadster these are in addition to many other prizes. There are others as well... You do not call this quasi paid advertising? Motor Trend was given exclusive early access to Model 3 for the article you referenced, exclusive usually happens with some money changing hands?

    You say Munro was biased? towards Tesla? Ev's? I thought he pretty much told the story, the car had poor FFQ quality, but drove beautifully, in the teardown there were great engineering in the suspension, and electronics, the other mechanicals not so much... What of that is not true based on other online reviews? I am telling you as a person that has driven Model 3, he is about as fair as he can be. People like you, though that just constantly defend Tesla, make things worse, because not only are you not objective, but you are not even using personal experience or knowledge of the products to form your arguments, you are going completely on faith... That means... Cult member??

    When my I-Pace comes you will hear a real review of the I-Pace with complete objectivity. If there is quality problems, I will be the first to jump on Jaguar about it, and will post my experience. I am pretty sure Jaguar will give me the car without signing an NDA to keep my mouth shut about problems. haha!
  17. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    Gifting customers to catalyze word of mouth is fine, its laughable to compare it to bribery based lobbying enabling law corrupting sponsored media.

    Might want to stop equivocating as well. Munro said the skate and below was solid- those are the mechanical. He did not criticize the motor, said the brake testing platform was ready when he was, likely will not be critical of those either. Given that he likes the handling he is not critical of steering- again electric on this platform. Its ridiculous that what is labeled as mechanical boils down to design choices on the chassis and using materials he things are too expensive. Is the chassis gong to be prone to mechanical failure? No absolutely not the, the converse, better materials and design choices were about safety. They kept repeating mechanicals but it wasn't mechanicals implying reliability issues. This was more of the same BS that happened when they would try to say the Model X was unreliable as if it were going to strand you over the falcon wing doors, when reliability is much much greater for electric vs ICE Tesla was the first to announce the million miles plus reliability. So very likely this as an attempt to conflate reliability with non issues.

    The panel gap stuff is also bs in many ways. Musk attempted to 2x the launch speed, and the factor wasn't tune yet. Are panel gaps a huge issue on the model X and model S? Part of what they are getting at here is that Model 3 is somewhat of a new process using less aluminum to save cost so Tesla may have a slight learning curve. At one point Munro said there a lot of guys in the industry that could help them solve the dinosaur stuff but they already do the really rarefied stuff at apex level. But its ridiculous because Tesla already got the best people in the automotive field it took them at well from everywhere. Because smart ethical people tend to love Tesla dumb dishonest people trying to win the Darwin award for money tend to loath it. Right now there is a LA times writer saying Musk must explain bankruptcy which is moronic- hopefully Tesla supporters start to track the shill publications and the shill authors and attach their Tesla Vitae and all the times they've been wrong to everything they say and funding sources where possible. The opposition press for Tesla is utterly discredited even more so than the typical Darwin award Tesla short seller.
  18. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Awarding prizes to encourage Tesla owners to make what amounts to personal recommendations on social media, is a very long way from buying an ad in a magazine, newspaper, radio, or TV. Those actual mass media ads have actual ad rates which customers would actually have to pay to run an ad. The prizes Tesla awards don't work that way; not even remotely. You're not comparing apples to oranges; you're comparing apples to Rubik's Cubes!

    Your insinuation of bribery here is insulting, and despicable. Do you have even the slightest bit of evidence to support that? No, you don't. Put up or shut up.

    I've already pointed out one extremely glaring bit of total B.S. in his video regarding panel gaps; see photos I posted in post #5, above. Other people have pointed out that much of what he says about Tesla's electronics isn't true, and plausibly claim that one of the cards shown is made by Nvidia, contrary Munro's claim that Tesla built it in-house. So he's giving Tesla far too much credit for their electronics. Munro's complaints about overly robust components in the car's frame/unibody also show a lack of knowlege about BEVs.

    So there is pretty compelling evidence that Munro:

    1. Created FUD about fit-and-finish issues that is total B.S.

    2. Over-praises Tesla for their electronics

    3. Criticizes Tesla for making parts of the frame/unibody and other components more robust than they need to be, not understanding that the very heavy battery pack on the bottom of the car requires parts of the frame/unibody to be stronger than they are on a gasmobile.

    Those are just the issues noticed by myself and a few others posting comments to InsideEVs. Given those easily observed flaws, it's a near-certainty that there are other mistakes in his analysis.

    I'm proud to be a Tesla Cult member! Charter member #245... why aren't you a Tesla Cult member, dude? Hmmm? :eek:

    Seriously, Tesla Inc. is doing far more than any other EV maker to push forward the EV revolution. Arguably, Tesla is doing more to push the EV revolution than all of the other auto makers put together! If you're an EV supporter, David Green, then why do you have such a strong bias against Tesla? Why aren't you a strong supporter of Tesla?

    What's your real agenda here? :mad:
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2018
  19. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    Can you work on your spelling, and punctuation, so I can more clearly understand what you are saying...
  20. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    Make personal recommendations on social media is not quasi advertising? How many of the people that used Bjorn's referral code did he know personally to make a personal recommendation? 0, and I think it is about the same for the others. That sounds like millions of dollars for referrals.... Sounds like grass roots advertising to me.

    I am starting to think you might be on the Tesla payroll as you keep deflecting what I say and again, not from your personal experience. You told me before that you had not ridden in, or seen a Model 3 in person... So how can you declare you know more about the Model 3 then
    professionals that design and re-design cars for a living. Did you read Tesla's rebuttal to the report, they did not deny the quality problems, and just said they are building them better now.

    I am not going to argue with you about Munro's report... You are neither a car person, nor an engineer, so you have no understanding of these kind of structures or designs to have an educated conversation with. BTW, the circuit board in question is the Autopilot 2.5 which is not built by Nvidia, I know that for a fact now. Nvidia GPU yes, but not the board. The older Autopilot 2 was Nvidia.

    You should go through and read the Model 3 owners club delivery posts, and get some insight. I did not read one that had a perfect delivery, all had some kind of quality problems. I know I know... Save your breath... more FUD... HAHA!

    Why am I here? To stop people like you, and 101101 from spreading misinformation... Its easy to see why this forum does not have many followers that are real EV people, or intelligent conversations about EV's. Both of you guys are just spreading Tesla hype, and BS, but not real factual information. 101101 is even worse as he is constantly posting hate towards other EV's... Its silly, and does not make any sense for the EV movement. With the negative attitude and attacking deflections, all you guys do is turn people off of EV's, you are not helping any movement...
  21. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Is that what I said? No, I didn't. Yes, of course it's a form of advertising. Most salesmen know that the most effective form of advertising is a personal recommendation!

    Does Tesla use advertising? Yes, of course it does. It just doesn't use paid mass media advertising, or at least very little of that. I've seen some claims that Tesla does buy billboard ads -- which by my definition would be paid mass media advertising -- but I think such claims are questionable. All the examples I've seen, in pictures posted to the internet, are either large advertising signs on Tesla's own buildings, or are from advertisers' websites which merely show a virtual image of a billboard with a Tesla ad, not an actual real-world billboard.

    But let's get back to the subject: You accused Tesla of bribing Motor Trend to run a fake review that was in reality a paid ad, and when I called you out on that, you tried to change the subject to Tesla using prizes to encourage personal recommendations posted to social media.

    When I make a mistake, when I post a claim which is shown to be factually incorrect, I man up (or should that be "llama up"? ;) ) and admit it. I call upon you to do the same, here.

    Perhaps it's an improper use of the term "personal recommendation" when it's posted to a public forum. There may be a better term for that. If you want to call that "grass roots advertising", that's fine with me.

    But more importantly, thanks for bringing up Bjørn Nyland's videos. That's a great example of how Tesla offering prizes produces a very different outcome than actually bribing a car review magazine or website to run a falsely positive review, as many or most auto makers other than Tesla do. As many people have noted, Bjørn doesn't pull his punches in his reviews of Tesla cars. He points out the bad along with the good; both the pros and the cons. Thank you, Bjørn! :cool:

    Yeah, I expected to see that accusation from you. First you accuse me of being a Tesla "cultist", now you're accusing me of being a paid shill. If you don't like people pointing out that what you're posting is biased to the point of being contrary to actual facts, then quit posting that cabbage and stick to the facts, or opinions which are actually based on facts. As they say: "You're entitled to your own opinion, but you're not entitled to your own facts."

    Wow. Just wow. Lumping me in with someone who, let us say, lives in a reality rather different than the one most of us share?

    That really takes the cake, dude. :rolleyes:

    I see over in the thread about changing the editing time limit that you're accusing the moderators here of all sorts of things and trying to insist that everyone has to agree with your opinion. So I'm seeing a pattern in your comments, and it's not a positive one. It's an antisocial one. Perhaps forums dedicated to discussion of serious topics isn't for you. Maybe you should stick to Facebook and the like, where comments rapidly disappear and very seldom do you see any in-depth or serious discussion of any subject.

    As they say: "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."
  22. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    I don't have the time to reply to this... you just spin whatever I say into something different anyway... There are real things going on in the world, and I do not think anyone has time for these emotional tirades, and spin factory...

    BTW I did not post in the Thread about editing time... :)~
  23. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    That's true, fair cop, I did get someone else's post(s) mixed up with yours.

    My mistake, and my humble apology.

Share This Page