Negativity

Discussion in 'Clarity' started by jdonalds, May 4, 2018.

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  1. jdonalds

    jdonalds Well-Known Member

    I'm really kind of blown away by the resistance to electrified cars in this country. Every time I see a Clarity advertisement on Youtube or Facebook I'll give it a thumbs-up and post a positive comment about the car. Then I start to read through the comment section.

    The lack of acceptance of PHEV or BEV cars is astounding. Many people make comments about using coal fired plants to generate electricity for our cars, stating that we are polluting more than gas vehicles.

    Another common comment is regarding range anxiety, not understanding that the Clarity does have an ICE also so that isn't a factor.

    Some quote that their gas powered car can go 500 miles on a tank, completely ignoring the fact that this has everything to do with gas tank size, not economy.

    The comments on those videos tend to be 90% negative. It just seems to be an uphill battle with consumers and dealerships who don't understand the benefits.

    I believe electricity will dominate the market in a few years. Of the total number of cars on the road BEV and PHEVs will still be small for a long time to come, but new sales will begin to climb in terms of percentage sold. This will partially be due to the manufacturers simply reducing the number of gas only vehicles while adding more and more electric models.

    It may take a very long time but eventually gas engines will be largely eliminated. One day far in the future young people will be amazed that we used to drive cars with so many moving parts, pistons, crank shafts, alternators, water pumps, valves, and the cars ran by controlled explosions.

    I believe many of those nay-sayers simply don't understand the wonderful simplicity of driving an electric car. I wish I could have eliminated the ICE in our Clarity to get rid of that technology of more than 100 years ago. But range anxiety, and long charge times just wouldn't work for me.

    There is a lot of promise that batteries with less than 15 minute charge times are coming in the next two to three years. When that happens the real shift will begin.

    Apparently we Clarity owners are pioneers.
     
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  3. KentuckyKen

    KentuckyKen Well-Known Member

    Totally agree, jdonalds. The advent of a 15 min charge/400 or 300 m battery pack will sound the deathknell for the ICE except for special applications like big rigs and heavy towing. And the next gen of higher energy density batteries will take care of even those apps one day. Plus when oil gets scarce, it will need to be conserved for feedstock for the plastics industries. As you said, our grandkids won’t believe we burned it for fuel instead of making things with it.
    The Clarity is the perfect bridge vehicle between the old and the new.
     
  4. Viking79

    Viking79 Well-Known Member

    I notice that whenever I see a facebook post or something too. This is nothing really new, but it has been more visible now that more people are on the Internet.

    What I notice is by buying a plug in, people watch me use it at work, see what it is like, can talk to me, and it slowly spreads to other people as they start to understand.

    Plugging in a car takes a little time to adjust to. I think much of the hate comes to the party line politics associated with them. It is unfortunate. The funny thing is many of the people complaining about the tax credits are getting different tax credits themselves.
     
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  5. PHEV Newbie

    PHEV Newbie Well-Known Member

    I much prefer charging in my garage than breathing gasoline fumes regularly at the filling station and I really, really hate spilling gasoline on my hands or car! Now that I'm used to my Clarity, I find it luxurious and fun to drive. The fact that I'm saving over a thousand dollars a year in gasoline in the process is just amazing. I think there's people who think "green car" drivers project a holier than thou attitude, and they react negatively to it. That's certainly not the case for most posters on this board. For me, I just hate wasting money but I do like to enjoy driving. I just found that the Clarity to be the most economical way to have a luxurious ride (sorry to be a broken record). Maybe if that word gets out, the negativity may drop a bit (I guess the haters of frugal people could emerge though).
     
  6. insightman

    insightman Well-Known Member

    When I got my 1st Insight in Feb, 2000, it was common for the few owners to get together. Being the 1st hybrid car in the US, people had a hard time understanding how it worked. One owner thought he would make things clearer by getting a license plate that said, "NO PLUG." I wanted to tell him that NO PLUG wasn't actually a good thing, but kept my opinion to myself. I've lost track of that fellow early-adopter, but I wish I could show him our Clarity PHEV.

    My wife won't let me dangle a short 120-volt power cord from under our Clarity's rear bumper. Unfortunately, I had to admit that there aren't many people who would get the joke.
     
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  8. Atul Thakkar

    Atul Thakkar Active Member

    The only way people will understand is that when the gas prices really hit their pockets. In Canada, it really hearts with price upwardsof $5 per gallon.

    Next year's sale for phev will be crazy
     
  9. Johngalt6146

    Johngalt6146 Active Member

    It appears, that in April, the #2 PHEV seller in the US was Clarity. It is also gaining on Volt. Did I read the chart correctly?

    I just got back from Amsterdam. At the airport almost all the cabs are Teslas (170 S's and X's). This was the first Tesla I had ridden in. I like my Clarity more.
    Returning from my hotel to the airport I used Uber and got picked up in a Hyundi Ioniq BEV. Very nice!
     
  10. AlanSqB

    AlanSqB Active Member

    I've been in the electric car world for a few years now and I guess I've stopped being surprised by the negativity. I'll just share my anecdotal experience that it's not necessarily any majority, just a group that like to speak loudly (literally and metaphorically).

    Here are the different types of folks I've met who are negative about EV's:

    - Individuals who push back on anything "Green" and insist that EV's, solar, and anything efficient is a boondoggle designed to make liberals rich. They refer to any environmentally friendly behavior as "greenwashing." They see anything green as a threat to their political beliefs, freedoms, rights. My dad is in this group and loves to remind me how many children in 3rd world countries died to make my traction battery (thanks Koch brothers).

    - Individuals who have a vested interest (or a family member with one) in the fossil fuel industry. This is something I run into here in Colorado as many families here obtain their livelihood from the extraction and processing of fossil fuels through drilling and fracking. I've personally been accosted by a woman for driving an electric car and putting her son out of work (when crude is cheap and plentiful on the market, fracking slows down and people get laid off here).

    - As mentioned upstream, individuals who think we EV people are a bunch of "holier than thou" judgmental types. I'm guessing this is based on their experiences in the past with more "militant environmental" type folks who might have gotten in their faces in the past. I don't personally give anyone a hard time for owning a pickup truck. I have one. I just try to use it sparingly.

    I'll just say, don't worry. These folks just tend to be really noisy. As I've done ride-and-drives and other EV volunteer work, I've met lots of very curious and engaged folks, and just a few of the ones described above. I know for a fact people are very interested in our cars and the tides are changing. I just choose to ignore the noise from the negative folks and be as nice to the curious as possible. We won't change the hearts/minds of those who won't listen and an internet argument is like running on a treadmill, you get your heart rate up, get sweaty, and use lots of breath. When you're done, you're right where you started. ;-)
     
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  11. AlanSqB

    AlanSqB Active Member

    I forgot to plug my car in last night and was out of juice this morning when I left for work. I had to go to the gas station and fill up because I've been driving around on empty for months now. It was SOOO GROSS!!! I still smell like gasoline. YUCK. After 3 years with a LEAF and 4 months using almost all EV with the Clarity, I am really spoiled.
     
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  13. Atul Thakkar

    Atul Thakkar Active Member

    In Canada, they have started nice program. It is called plug and drive center. Here, they keep all phev and ev vehicles for test drive avilable in Canada and provide information only.They do not sell any vehicle and provide technical information and helping you to select right vehicle for you. Just by going to this place, you can see all vehicles. Also they will do lunch and learn at work place.
    Nice concept
     
  14. dstrauss

    dstrauss Well-Known Member

    Well, I'll chip in from the center of the oil industry, Midland, Texas. My clients are all those folks with vested interests in fossil fuels, but this is a technology driven industry, and they all understand the coming electrification of the auto industry. Many, if not most, also embrace the importance of wind power as Texas is one of the nation's leaders. @KentuckyKen is right, fossil fuels will have a long life in plastics, etc.

    It's surprising that most of the negativity is a combination of ignorance and/or simple resistance to change. It's just like all of the "Clarity is fugly" comments even from EV supporters.
     
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  15. jdonalds

    jdonalds Well-Known Member

    Those who may think I bought a Clarity or two previous Prius cars because they are "green" cars should know that didn't even enter my mind when I bought those cars. I am a solid conservative (unfortunately living in liberal CA). I bought the cars for the technology, to help step away from ICE power, for the stepping stone to all electric (which I feel isn't quite ready yet for me).

    Our other car is a 2005 4Runner V8, mostly a tow vehicle for our boat. When we so seldom drive it it seems ridiculous. It's loud, gives off exhaust fumes, and it gets about 13 mpg around town. We drive it as seldom as possible. The more we drive the Clarity the more the 4Runner seems old-school.

    The Prius was a huge tease. I wanted it to drive in EV mode but the best I could pull off was between 1/2 mile and 2 miles depending on hills. The Clarity PHEV is also a tease because I love driving in EV mode. Fortunately we get to drive 100% in EV around town. It's not about being green for me. It's the brilliance of replacing the complex, gas burning, inefficient, noisy, ICE.

    Some people argue that they have an ICE car that gets 40+ mpg. That sounds good when comparing it with a hybrid Prius that gets 50+ mpg. But our Clarity is way way better than that. The gap between our car, charged on solar, and a high MPG ICE car is huge.
     
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  16. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    While it is sometimes depressing to see just how much FUD* is floating around on the internet about PEVs (Plug-in EVs), at the same time I wouldn't worry about it too much, this early in the EV revolution. At present, only 1-2% of new car buyers choose PEVs, and the percentage of cars on the road which are PEVs is even less.

    People are naturally resistant to change; it's human nature. That's perfectly understandable; evolution has selected for humans who are conservative when it comes to risking their lives by using new and unfamiliar things. As the EV revolution progresses and the general public gets more exposure to PEVs, learns more about them, and gains more experience with them, public perception will shift.

    Let's remember that at one time, people believed that you'd be killed if you rode in a railroad car at a speed greater than about 20 MPH, because any faster and the air would supposedly be sucked out of your lungs. So the misconceptions about a new form of transportation are nothing new, and will fade over time.

    In the meantime, we can help educate the public in a calm and rational manner. (Do as I say, not as I do! ;) ) Find and bookmark a few authoritative websites which explain clearly why PEVs are better and significantly less polluting than gasmobiles, and post links to those when responding to FUD and misinformation, rather than wasting your time arguing with those who spread FUD created by Big Oil propagandists, Detroit auto makers, hard-right think tanks which promote the interests of Big Oil, and hard-core Tesla bashers who attack PEVs in general for various reasons, often including support for their Tesla stock shorting position.

    Sadly, there are a lot of reasons people post FUD about PEVs to the internet. Big Oil, in particular, has a well-funded propaganda machine. But thankfully, economic forces are more powerful than political ones. Eventually, people are gonna figure out that it's better and less expensive to own and operate a PEV than a comparable gasmobile. When they do, no amount of FUD is going to keep them from choosing a PEV as their next car!

    *Fear, uncertainty and doubt (often shortened to FUD) is a disinformation strategy used in sales, marketing, public relations, talk radio, politics, cults, and propaganda. FUD is generally a strategy to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false information and a manifestation of the appeal to fear. (source: Wikipedia)

    Up the EV revolution!
    -
     
  17. Johngalt6146

    Johngalt6146 Active Member

    I'm a conservative also. I bought mine because of the extreme quiet and smoothness of the electric drive. MPG had nothing to do with my decision (you can see the pig I used to drive in the picture), but battery range and range anxiety were very, very important considerations. I searched many specs before buying it, looking for a car that would reliably go at least 30 miles on electric, yet had long highway range without searching for a recharger or waiting at one. I suspect that in 2 years there will be many, but the only other candidate that I found was the Volt, which is not sold near here.
    IMHO, the Clarity represents a great engineering balance between a pure ICE and a pure BEV, especially at its price point. Its minor issues are truly minor. But Honda needs to advertise it much more. I have yet to find anyone (outside of this blog) who is aware of it.
     
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  18. Ken7

    Ken7 Active Member

    And this is the sad fact in a nutshell. Don't expect any mass movement toward electric vehicles until gas prices become onerous enough to begin that migration. Until that happens, people will continue buying their ICE vehicles for a long time or at least as long as manufacturers continue to offer them. Look at Ford, not only are they continuing with ICE, but they're actually phasing out their passenger cars in favor of larger SUVs...with gas engines. Folks, this aint changing any time soon.

    Then you have people often associating electric vehicles with ugliness, and for the most part, they're right. Tesla has certainly tried to change that and, at least in my wife's and my eyes, so has the Clarity.

    Finally we have the actual driving experience (aside from the range anxiety that some just can't get past, whether the car has both an electric and gas engine or not). I for one love the sound (or lack thereof) of electric vehicle acceleration, while others are actually turned off by it, preferring the roar of gas engines pushing toward the red line.

    There are many many old habits that need to be broken, and that doesn't happen very fast.
     
  19. Tangible

    Tangible Active Member

    My community is the opposite of those in TX and CO - I'm in Massachusetts, just a few miles from the "People's Republic of Cambridge" - the epicenter of liberalism, at least on the East Coast. Back when everyone else was driving Fords and Chevys the car of choice here was the Volvo, and for the less-affluent, an old VW bus, suitably decorated.

    Driving an electric car here is a badge of honor, not a target for abuse. But I really think the linkage between choice of fuel and political persuasion is nuts, and hopefully temporary. An influential book called "The Innovator's Dilemma" was the first reference to disruptive technology, and one of its basic tenets was that new technologies are often inferior to entrenched ones at the beginning, and then rapidly surpass them. That's why the Tesla was exciting: a real performance car with no compromises for the off-the-line folks. All electrics are going that route, towards high performance and long range. At that point, the battle will be won.
     
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  20. Ken7

    Ken7 Active Member

    I agree 100% and given my political leanings, I'm proof of that. Conservatism and common-sense conservation are not mutually incompatible philosophies. :)
     
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  21. Michael L.

    Michael L. New Member

    We've gone full circle since the beginning of the 2008 financial crisis. In July 2008, a barrel of oil/gas prices were at record highs. Auto manufacturers were aggressive with hybrid offerings as people were turning in their SUVs for something cheaper to buy. Honda comes to my mind here. They offered a natural gas version of the Civic, and a Civic hybrid. I purchased a Civic natural gas during those high gas price times. The Accord hybrid was introduced with the 9th generation, and I went with it when gas prices came down. Honda has since discontinued the Civic natural gas and hybrid, citing low demand with the lower gas prices. And Ford, as Ken7 has mentioned, is going with only 2 cars in its lineup, focusing on gas-guzzling SUVs and trucks. I'm confident, however, that eventually the tide will flip again, and when it does, the change may be more of a permanent one. Fossil fuel use is on an unsustainable path, and that's actually a good thing for all of us.
     
  22. Johngalt6146

    Johngalt6146 Active Member

    Tangible: Great analysis of cars in that community! My daughter is a member and I see a lot of it. Volvo's do seem to be the standard, with some Tesla's on the Mass. Pike. For those just starting out, its the Subaru. I am also tremendously impressed with all the solar panels I see when I visit, including those fully covering roof tops and large arrays along the Mass. Pike.
     
  23. dstrauss

    dstrauss Well-Known Member

    OK, I'll summarize my prior arguments from the true heart of oil production (Midland TX) - "all conservatives are not oil swilling nuts." In fact, one of my best clients once told me (as he was getting out of his Prius) - I may sell it (oil) to them, but I don't have to buy it back!

    For every gas guzzling conservative in their pickup, there's a liberal in their ICE Mercedes, BMW, Yukon or Hummer equally as foolish. As Forrest's momma said, "Stupid is as stupid does" and NOTHING infuriates me more than the unending traffic lines filled with pickups and SUV's with ONLY the driver on board. I'm exactly like them - I love my independence and hate carpooling - but the hybrid/BEV/PHEV alternatives are the answer to that. Look at Honda and Toyota - the 50mpg Accord and Camary hybrids are far superior to gas guzzling pure ICE alternatives, and like our Clarity offer a comfortable and luxurious ride.

    The real key to converting America (and I suspect other countries) is not just $5.00 gasoline, it's proving to those drivers you don't have to ride in a sardine can to save carbon output...and trust me, most folks idea of a "green" car is a Mini Cooper or Smart Car size vehicle which they detest (despite how much safer we would all be if the biggest cars weighed under 1500 pounds).

    Believe it or not, even us oil state conservatives believe the future is electric - we have hundreds of thousands of acres planted with colossal wind turbines here; we recognize that energy generation will rely on fossil fuels for decades to come, but that can be cleaner (natural gas) than the alternatives (coal). Not everyone can become self-sufficient as @jdonalds has, but more are trying, especially here in the Southwest.

    Yes, there are vested interests in Big Oil resisting change (just like Big Tobacco lying about cigarettes not being addictive), but it is the end user that has to change. I grew up in an era of $0.22 per gallon gasoline, and never thought I would see the day that people cherished $2.80 gasoline so they could go back to their big iron beasts (looking at you Expedition and Yukon). Price alone will not make the change for us, because even then they will go back to their bad habits as soon as the next crash comes. I dare say less than 5% of Americans have any idea what a PHEV is, and if they do, it is the underwhelming Prius Prime with 25 miles EV range that won't fit the bill for almost anyone's daily driving chores. We have to find a way to create more Clarity/CR-V size PHEV's that will give us 50 or more miles EV and still carry you on gasoline as a hybrid - that will fit the American mindset and really make the transition take hold.

    OK - off my soapbox (for now)...
     
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