My electric rates make EV ownership a wash.

Discussion in 'General' started by Feed The Trees, Feb 22, 2018.

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  1. Feed The Trees

    Feed The Trees Active Member

    I've never seen the figures work out so close.

    My new place has really high electric rates and there's no plan options, just the tier one, no time of day or electric car special or anything. I have electric heat and 12' tall ceilings. My wife or I work from home 3 days a week.

    We readily trip into tier 2 pricing which is $0.27748. Since we hit that as it is any BEV will start there best case. Worst case it clicks us into tier 3 so $.40337.

    But using the .27 figure and BEV of decent range with a 50kwh battery that's $13.48 a fill up good months and $20 a bad month.

    Now a model 3 range is slated at 220 miles. I don't believe it, because I've never gotten anything close to real world stated miles. Im an admitted hot mess of mileage. Drive 80, windows down, sunroof open (well not past 60), heat or AC on, roof racks with various toys. At that I get about 280 miles on my gasser. In theory I should get 450 miles. My fill price is about $40. So $0.14 a mile real world.

    Let's apply the same range degredation ratio to the 3. That's a 135 mile range which I'd believe. So it's about exactly $0.10 a mile. If it's one of those bad months it's the exact same as my gas at $.14.

    And that's using my gasser, which is way bigger than the 3. If I took my wife's smaller car it'd be better.
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  3. NeilBlanchard

    NeilBlanchard Active Member

    Regular maintenance on an ICE can add 2-3¢ / mile.

    The worst range we got in our Bolt EV (windy 9F at 55-60MPH) is about 150 miles. A/C has a much smaller affect on the range than does heat, and 9F is quite cold.

    We pay 20-22¢ / kWh and that averages about 4¢ to 4.5¢ / mile. This is a year round average.
  4. Feed The Trees

    Feed The Trees Active Member

    Yeah there's a bit more maintenance but I'm not driving some European V8t or a sports car.

    There is a pretty big difference in 55-60 and 75-85 cruising speeds. I also have that roof rack which isn't helping either. I bet your 150 mile range would drop to 115 in my conditions... which has always been a primary concern. I have to plan on 50% as a livable range for me and hope for better. But that doubles price per mile and narrows the gap.
  5. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Wow, that sucks.

    If you own the home, then it looks like you'd be a prime candidate for a home solar power system. With your rates for electricity, and since you're using electric heating instead of natural gas, the payback time should be relatively short.
  6. Feed The Trees

    Feed The Trees Active Member

    We do own. We also have electric cooking and washer/dryer too. All electric. Only thing gas in here is my fireplace and the water heater which is communal to 5 other units. I did ask about solar this morning (HOA, condo) but zero other people here have them far as I can see so guessing the answer is no, haven't heard back yet though. My place cost $1.1m so I would suspect people here have the funds to get solar if they could, but the absence of it tells me no go. My last house didn't matter since it was smaller and everything was gas powered and electric was time of use. My electric bills there had a crazy long payback where the installers just walked away said it'd never be worth it. This place though, I would consider it but it's a condo so not my decision.
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  8. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    HOA and a condo. Yeah, they probably won't let you install solar on the roof. Heck, they won't let us here in our subdivision because of a stupid HOA. :(

    It would be interesting to see the exact wording of the HOA, though. I wonder if you (or we, for that matter) could install solar panels on a raised frame in the back yard. Here, that would make it easier to clear snow off in the winter.
  9. WoW! I thought the electricity prices I have here were lousy, we only have one tier rate from our energy supplier & it's £0.17/kWh = $0.24kWh.
  10. NeilBlanchard

    NeilBlanchard Active Member

    There is a YUGE difference when it is as cold as 9F. What temperatures do you see?

    Cold air lowers range in 3 ways:

    1) aero drag is significantly higher, and cold mechanical parts have higher friction
    2) The heater is required to keep the windows clear - this can add about 25% to the energy consumption
    3) Conditioning the battery can add another ~10% to the energy consumption.

    If you are in higher temperatures, then all 3 of these things go down, or are eliminated. Running A/C is no where near as bad as running the heat.

    And, would it really harm you in any way to slow down? I mean, stay below the speed limit, for crying out loud. The aero drag almost DOUBLES from 55MPH up to 75MPH.
  11. Feed The Trees

    Feed The Trees Active Member

    I'm not slowing down, of all things time is the most non renewable resource we have. I'll burn gas before I burn time.

    Anyhow the board lady I know didn't say no, so maybe nobody asked? She's forwarded to the broader board. Maybe a case of presumption on everyone's part, nobody's done it so they all presume you can't.
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  13. griffindm54

    griffindm54 New Member

    I am on the board of my condo association, so I understand a little of where they would be coming from. If its a condo, then they own the roof. What you can offer them is to agree to an easement where they let you put in the solar panels, but you agree to pay to remove them if necessary to redo the roofing. They may want a deposit down to know they have the funds. It should not be a big amount, and would presumably be transferable to any new owner.
  14. Feed The Trees

    Feed The Trees Active Member

    Im thinking there would be enough interest from my neighbors to even do a group buy. Since the buildings are all mostly the same it would make blueprints and permits easier as well.

    Our buildings have flat roofs which are 2 or 3 stories tall, you probably wouldn't even see the panels much unless you're looking out the 3rd floor windows down on the 2nd floor roof tops. Someone may be concerned but I'd rather look at solar panels than a bare grayindustrial grade poly roof.

    In fact yeah duh I know there is no solar up there by way of all the aerial shots I have seen of my complex. Really a waste, full sun all day and crazy high rates. Could even convince my wife to get an EV once our current car kicks the bucket in 5 years or so.

    The one concern I have is wind, we get some pretty strong sustained winds here regularly... 20mph + isn't unheard of. Would not like these things to start exerting a constant pulling force on the roof. Won't end well after years of it.
  15. griffindm54

    griffindm54 New Member

  16. Feed The Trees

    Feed The Trees Active Member

    Yeah IF it gets approved I will leave that all to the enginerds and city building commission
  17. Martin Williams

    Martin Williams Active Member

    I suspect that if BEVs become popular, the price of electricity will rise. Whatever you choose to run your car on, you can depend upon it that a way of making you pay will be found.

    I suppose you could use a solar roof and via a battery or your own electrolyser, run your car from that, but no doubt you would be taxed for doing it and end up no better off! Also, the reduction in demand for electricity from the grid from many solar roofs will make any electricity you DO use a lot more expensive

    If you sell the electricity from your roof to the grid and use it to charge your car at work, you will find that you have to pay more for charging power than you get paid for what goes into the grid. Any cost saving in the fuel costs for electric - or hydrogen - cars is likely to be a temporary phenomenon. Enjoy it whilst it lasts.
  18. Feed The Trees

    Feed The Trees Active Member

    Still waiting to hear back, the lady is either really busy or they're giving this a good mulling over. The HOA itself has an electric bill that they could probably offset by getting their own panels on top of the pool house.

    And uh, there's no way they're taxing something you create yourself and use yourself. Not here at least. They will fix it by increasing annual car taxes for everyone.
    Roy_H likes this.
  19. Martin Williams

    Martin Williams Active Member

    Well, the details vary from country to country, but they will find some way of making you pay wherever you are I'm quite sure.
  20. Feed The Trees

    Feed The Trees Active Member

    Those pesky details always getting in the way of trying to make a point that doesn't exist.
  21. Martin Williams

    Martin Williams Active Member

    They may start charging you through thWelle nose for street lighting assuming that is provided by the government as it is here.
  22. Martin Williams

    Martin Williams Active Member

    Well, you are the one suggesting that the car taxes will be raised for everyone. It is, of course, quite possible for BEVs to be taxed more or less heavily than others.
  23. Feed The Trees

    Feed The Trees Active Member

    Street lights are just part of the city budget, it's already paid by us. theyre all LED here anyhow.

    Yes they will eventually need to levy a tax on BEV to backfill the reduction in gas tax, but it wont be charging based it will be through the annual tax paid on cars to the state. They have tinkered with miles based, and then miles in specific areas are more than others to fight congestion, but that's too big brother like for most.

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