Munro says Tesla Model 3 is profitable

Discussion in 'Model 3' started by David Green, Jul 16, 2018.

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  1. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    Very interesting analysis, looking forward to seeing Sandy on Autoline After Hours August 16th 2018 for more in depth...

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  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Munro also praised the integrated electronics, 2170 cell, and predicts ~30% profitability:
    • dense multifunction electronic control boards - instead of multiple parts and narrowly defined parts, maximum integration to reduce parts counts.
    • 2170 cell - 20% larger and 50% more capacity.
    • $29.84 review mirror - contains no active electronics versus $93.46 BMW i3 and $164.83 Chevy Bolt.
    Bob Wilson
  4. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    Yes, thats what Sandy said.. of course saying the car is so profitable makes analysts, other automakers ears perk up to buy the report, don't you think? I think Tesla is onto something with the electronics, but the cost reduction by de-contenting the car is the biggest reason I would never consider model 3 (poor build quality being another reason) The rear view mirror is great example compared to Bolt, the rear view mirror in the Bolt is auto dimming, if bright lights come up behind you, and the Bolt rearview mirror has a camera mode, which gives an unobstructed view behind the car, no matter how tall of people are in the back seat. There are hundreds of these content things that Bolt has, but are missing on the Tesla model 3, all of that content has cost, just a few things Bolt has that Model 3 does not have that I would not want to live without, key FOB's, auto dimming rear view mirror, blind spot warning in side mirrors, rear heated seat controls in the back seat, conventional instrument panel, more controls on the steering wheel, automatic rear view camera cleaning. Some of these functions for safety, and some for convenience.
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    I don't know. Some of the short sellers appear to have history going after Solar City before Elon bought them. I suspect some of the short sellers are 'green envy' and not 'green eyeshade' motivated.
    We have separate requirements and mine seek minimalist systems. Fewer parts improve reliability because what isn't there can't break. But then I've been driving Prius since 2005 and never looked back.

    Bob Wilson
  6. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    Different strokes for different folks... I like all the safety and convenience features that modern cars have... Cars that are de-contented to lower cost do not interest me.
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  8. Just finished writing up the post for this video for InsideEVs. I was amazed at how impressed he was. It's not easy for us to walk back earlier statements, but Munro had no trouble doing so here. He didn't bring up fit and finish here, which was still inexcusably bad in his early build, so the tone throughout is much more positive.

    Interesting that he points out that, although there are some other vehicles that are more than 30% profitable, none of them are electric. Also interesting that he points to the integration of electronics as the source of these savings.
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
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  9. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Wonderful to see Munro eat a huge plate of crow, and now admits the Tesla Model 3 is superior in many ways to other new BEVs!

    It's gonna be hard for the Usual Suspects (the serial Tesla bashers on this forum) to put negative spin on this!

    But I see one of them is already trying very hard!

    Well done, David! (Slow clapping...) Bravo! :p Of course, you can't possibly convince us that you actually know anything about the build of the Model 3, unlike Munro who has actually torn the car apart down to the smallest nut and bolt, and made a list of each and every individual part, as well as studying the batteries to see how much improved they are over competitor's batteries. You've never so much as touched a Model 3 yourself, but you certainly are giving your Tesla bashing campaign a valiant effort! o_O :p :confused: :rolleyes:

    * * * * *

    But leaving the Bizarro world of Planet Tesla Basher, once again returning to the real world:

    We knew that Tesla's approach to building cars was superior in integration of controls and intuitive ergonomics. But according to Munro, Tesla has achieved the same superior level of integration of build, leading to very significant cost reduction!

    And nice to see that Munro is also impressed with the Model 3's 2170 batteries. Interesting that he thinks the Panasonic 2170 battery cell is significantly advanced over competitors from LG Chem and Samsung. But from the lack of understanding of BEVs on display in Munro's previous video on the subject, I'm going to take his battery analysis with several grains of salt. I hope he's right, but he's obviously not an expert in that field.

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  10. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    No, his complaints regarding fit and finish were inexcusably exaggerated in his earlier video. It's pretty obvious that his entire attitude toward the car was heavily biased against Tesla, presumably because he's a Detroit guy and Tesla is a competitor to Detroit auto making.

    Remember, Munro's first video had that facepalm moment where he claimed you could "hardly get a fingernail in" on one side of the trunk lid, and "can almost get your thumb in" on the other side! Yet anyone actually watching the video at that spot can very plainly see there is no such discrepancy in the panel gap. Here are a couple of screen shots. Can you tell which side supposedly has the larger panel gap?

    If there is a difference from side to side, it looks like you'd need a magnifying glass to see it!

    Equally embarrassing for Munro, and equally wrong-headed, is all the time he spent in that first video whining about what challenges emergency responders would face if they had to cut the car open in case of accident. As with all auto makers, Tesla has created a very clear set of instructions for emergency responders in how to deal with that situation. Suggesting that the Model 3 would be harder to deal with than any other EV shows the limitations of Munro's knowledge of electric cars.

    Almost as embarrassing was Munro's complaint about the bottom of the Model 3 (the frame or unibody) being "stronger than necessary", which according to him was a waste of steel, making the car more expensive than necessary. Clearly Munro failed to understand that the "skateboard" design requires a very strong frame/unibody in that area, to hold the very heavy battery pack. Frankly, I find it astonishing that anyone who regularly does teardowns of cars would fail to understand anything that basic to car design!

    Anyway, good to see that Munro has had his Road to Damascus, "Come to Jesus" experience regarding the Model 3. Hopefully he won't be so ignorant about BEVs in general the next time he tears one down.

    Not the only source of savings. In this new video, Munro talks about many of the parts having dual function, using one part where other auto makers would use two. He uses the rear-view mirror as an example.

    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    I think some would rather a familiar if underperforming vehicle over a strange, wunderfahrzeug. I am OK with that and even think it might make sense for 'virtual reality' googles and ear phones to make the Tesla experience seem like the technology they learned on. Happily father time will take care of those unable to adopt to change . . . and I am 68.

    Bob Wilson
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2018
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  13. There are separate issues here. They tested an early version of the Model 3. His views on the build quality are not far from what I have seen. Has Tesla improved any since then? Yes, of course, but a lot of these issues should have been figured out before production. Skipping steps has bit them in the behind. After doing two other cars, you would have thought they would know better by now. My car that was built in May and has some silly mistakes on the interior/exterior. Things I have never seen on my previous Volt, my previous Lexus or even my wife's Nissan Murano. I think the term "panel gap" is a misnomer since a lot of the issues are panel misalignments. For example one of my headlights is 1/2" up off the bumper than the other one. I've never seen this on my previous dozen cars I've owned.

    The engineering of the drive-train and other systems is well designed. Munro was impressed about that even in the first videos. You can be negative on one and positive on the other are not mutually exclusive. Some of the fanboys that don't even own a Tesla have no idea what they are talking about. Even the engineering isn't all perfect. The "emergency" door pulls on the front doors are moronically designed. Why would using them to open the doors cause damage to the windows/chrome/interior mechanisms? There is no reason why the doors had to have an electronic mechanism. My Mini that I just sold had the same frameless doors and windows that lowered automatically when opening/closing with a regular door pull. The air vent system is over-engineered and I'm willing to bet will break sometime during my first few years of ownership. Same with the key card and single display. Sorry for the long rant, but Tesla can't help itself from over-complicating their cars.

    Munro did full tear downs on the Bolt EV and BMW i3 to glowing reviews. It's not like he hasn't done EVs before.

    Don't get me wrong, I love the car, but it's not the optimal by any stretch. Call me a hater/shorter; but come on, I own the car.
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  14. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    That's pretty shocking. I admit to some puzzlement, since you posted in the thread you created about your new Model 3 "Paint and body panels alignment are excellent." Sounds like a pretty serious misalignment with that headlight! Is that something you noticed only after posting your previous comment?

    I'm just an "armchair engineer" on the subject, I've never even seen a TM3 in real life; but I've posted much the same opinion, based on what others have reported about the car. Putting in an electronic mechanism for latching and unlatching the doors is a needless violation of the KISS principle, and having to have a separate emergency mechanical release is IMHO even worse. But even that's not as bad as what you're saying here, that engaging the emergency mechanism can't be done without actually causing damage to the car... :eek: o_O :( If that's so, I'm surprised you decided to buy it. I think that would be a deal-breaker for me. (Not that I personally would be in the market for a Model 3. I don't like the enormous glass windshield/roof not providing any shade, and I don't like the idea of no instrument cluster.)

    Well, I'm hoping you'll change your mind on this point. I've never been happy with the very limited way vents and louvers are put into any car I've ever been in, and I'd love to try out the Model 3's approach of having a vent running across the length of the (almost nonexistant) dash, with (tell me if I'm wrong) controls for various zones within that vent controlled via the central touchscreen. Looks like thinking outside the box by Tesla to me! Of course, even if the design was good that doesn't necessarily mean the execution was flawless.

    Then why did Munro get so very many things wrong in his first "Model 3 teardown" video? Why was so much of the screen time spent on very obviously biased Tesla bashing, including a lot of comments which were factually incorrect and/or showed a shocking lack of understanding of some pretty basic things? For example, his wrong-headed claim that the bottom of the car was overbuilt, wasting steel, ignoring the need for a very strong frame/unibody at that point to support the heavy battery pack, which has only a light plastic case, so the battery casing doesn't contribute to the car's structural stiffness as it does with the Model S and Model X.

    How could an "expert" on automotive design get something as basic as that flat wrong?

    It's not like I'm the only one saying such things; just read the comments responding to the IEVs news article about that previous video:

    From InsideEVs (news site): "Tesla Model 3 Teardown Reveals Some Issues – Video"

    I don't think any reasonable person would call you a Tesla hater just because there are some things about the car you don't like. Nothing as complex as an automobile will ever be perfect. I think the vast majority of people would admit that regardless of how much they love their cars, their are at least some things about them that they would prefer had been designed and built differently.

    People who say positive things about certain EVs, be they Teslae or EVs from other auto makers, have earned the right to also say negative things about them. People like you and I, MTN Ranger, have earned the right to criticize Tesla's cars. The Usual Suspects here who post almost nothing except negative comments about Tesla and its CEO... not so much.

    There is an enormous gap, a Grand Canyon as it were, between expressing an honest but negative opinion, and knowingly posting counter-factual and/or dishonest FUD!

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  15. Well, he did say the gap could be seen from Mars, which is an obvious exaggeration. Though he didn't discuss the panel gaps (panel misalignments) in this video, but I'm willing to bet his next Autoline appearance it will come up and he will use similar language as before. Maybe it doesn't look so bad in these pics you've posted, but I'm willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt. He's been working with cars his whole life, and while I might not share some of his opinions, I generally trust he knows whereof he speaks.

    According to David's first post in the thread, that will be Aug 16. Mark your calendars. :)
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  16. Yes, my initial estimates of the body panels was based on my quick overview of the car during the first hour. Once owning it for two months and with detailing/cleaning/modifying things, I have found numerous issues.

    I have since added vinyl wrap to the front doors to prevent accidental openings. I'm not taking any chances. Maybe someday Tesla can fix this, I can always hope.

    I'm going to post a video soon showing replacing the puddle lamps on the bottom of the doors. Both front doors have a plastic section on the bottom that is not attached to the car! Under door 2.jpg

    I'm going in to service on Thursday for some of the items already mentioned and bring that up too.

    Sorry if my previous post seemed so negative, I'm sure most of the problems can be fixed over time or I get used to them.
  17. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Just my opinion, but I don't see that you posted anything that needs an apology. Honest opinions from actual owners should be valued, both positive and negative.

    Would you please expand on the issue of using the emergency front door release causing physical damage to the car? Is this something you actually tried out, or is it just that you're worried that using the lever would cause damage? I'd like some details on that, if you please; just what was (or would be) damaged, and what is causing that damage?

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  18. I didn't quite understand some of this. Like, how does the vinyl wrap prevent accidental openings? And the plastic section on the bottom of the doors, how can they not be attached? Apologies for my thickheadedness if the answers to these are plainly obvious.

    I didn't find the post negative. Just giving us the facts. Looking forward to your video. :)
  19. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    I don't understand that either. I'd ask for some Clarity... but that's a different plug-in EV! ;)

    Anyway, I hope MTN Ranger gives us more details about the issues he has raised.

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  20. I placed a 1.5" x 2.5" piece of vinyl wrap over the emergency pull handle on the front doors and make it less noticeable. If you really need to you can poke through the vinyl. My main reason is to discourage people from pulling on it as if it was the main door release. The Model 3's screen actually posts an alert not use it unless it's for an emergency and that damage to the door may result.

    Emergency Release Warning.jpg

    If you touch the plastic shown in the photo, it moves up to a couple of inches - there are no clips keeping it from moving. I noticed this since the projection LED puddle lights should be projecting a flat image on the ground. Due to the plastic being loose, the projection is slanted.
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2018
  21. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    How embarrassing for Tesla! A facepalm moment. :(

    If I was a Tesla basher I'd say that this was a sign Tesla is still "not ready for prime time".

    So -- I'm trying to visualize this -- the problem is that the part(s) in question are only hanging down from whatever they are attached to at the top, without being attached at the side to the interior door panel?

    I'll be interested to learn what the Tesla service department has to say about that, assuming you talk to them about it. Were there supposed to be fasteners that should have been installed at the factory, but mistakenly left off? Or is that just a poor design?

  22. I went to the Tesla service center today and got the door gasket replaced. The headlight was adjusted best to their abilities (still a little off, but not as noticeable). The dash fabric is defective and they had to reorder a new dash trim piece. And finally, they checked the underside of the door trim and mentioned nobody has ever noticed this. All of the other Model 3s they had also exhibited this issue. The service advisor said it's probably just something that got through due to cost cutting. For now, I'm going to ignore it.
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  23. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    May we please see photos? And did you take pictures before they adjusted it? Before and after photos would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks for taking the time to report your experiences here, MTN Ranger. :)

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