Model X still much slower than Tesla claims

Discussion in 'Model X' started by David Green, Oct 14, 2019.

  1. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    Wow, I am surprised the Model X still cannot back up the manufacturer rated 0-60 time even after lowering, and experiences axle shake at wide open throttle... Haha! Ya Tesla Luxury..

     
  2. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member


    Looks like axle rattle has been a problem Tesla cannot solve...

     
  3. BlueKonaEV

    BlueKonaEV Well-Known Member

    I don't think that the test was fair to Tesla (coming from a non Tesla owner)..
    Being a former drag racer of an 8 second 1/4 mile car, I can tell you that temperature of the pavement plays a huge role when it comes to acceleration as does track preparation. If you'd run on a warm pavement, you'll get significantly better traction. If you run on a drag strip (which is really the place where you should perform this types of test), you will get even better acceleration as they spray VHT (a sticky compound) on the track for maximum traction.
    I would like to see that test performed either on 90 degree pavement or ideally, on a prepped drag strip and then look at the results. While there is no tire spin due to traction control/stability control, the engine still cuts back if it detects tire slip. If you have good traction, the engine can transfer most of the power to the road without slip or spin. 4.77 seconds is within range of 4.4 seconds with ideal traction.
    Another variable is tire pressure.. Lower tire pressure is better for acceleration..
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
  4. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

     
  5. BlueKonaEV

    BlueKonaEV Well-Known Member

    Hyundai also significantly understated the Kona Electric performance. CAR&Driver tested it from 0 to 60 at 6.4 secs while the factory stated 7.6 seconds or so..
    It is really irrelevant what different manufacturers specify. I'm sure that the Model X is capable of 4.4 seconds in ideal conditions. I used to own several Corvettes and never got the factory stated 0-60 or 1/4 mile times with them probably because the warm air temperature in Florida as ICE performs better in cold weather.
     
  6. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    Corvettes have always been tricky to get good 0-60 runs in as traction is such an issue. For AWD cars its a much different experience, I remember going from a Corvette to a GTR, and went from repeatability within a couple tenths, to repeatability within a couple hundredths. The 2020 Corvette with 60% of the mass on the rear tires will be a bit easier to launch...
     
  7. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Oh look, our resident serial Tesla basher has highlighted yet another of TFL's biased Tesla-bashing videos.

    Informational value of this thread: Null.

     
  8. BlueKonaEV

    BlueKonaEV Well-Known Member

    Even witih AWD cars, traction is an issue.. With all the electronics, you don't realize that the computer cuts back power to prevent tire slip/spin.
    Warmer pavement will cause better 0-60 times. Furthermore, if you test on a good drag strip, you can almost eliminate tire slip/spin due to the track prep. I have gotten 1.85 60' times on 255/60R15 street tires (BF Goodrich Radial TA) on the Bradenton drag strip with a 465 HP 1968 Corvette. Got 1.591 60' time on Drag Radials which are street legal.(after changing to a stronger 600 HP engine). All that with only about 600 HP on a 68 Corvette.. Best 60' time on the car with an stronger engine (434 small block, 700 HP) was 1.316 on Radial Slicks. That's about 1.30 seconds from 0 - 60 mph as my mph at the 60' mark was already over 60 mph.. That was fun..
    That being said, track prep and tire choice make HUGE difference. I'm certain that on a drag strip, the Model X can hit the 4.40 mark.. Many manufacturers, including GM specify the time that the car is capable IN IDEAL CONDITIONS. Testing the car on a cold pavement is not an ideal condition. On ICE cars, I have seen 8 tenths of a second difference between summer and winter.. Used to have a 92' Corvette which I bracket raced. I ran as slow as 14.80's on a hot summer day while the car ran 14.00's in winter with 50 degree air temperature (10 Celsius)
     
  9. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member


    I worked on professional race teams that hold world records today in cars and boats, so yes, I understand the traction management systems. For the Tesla's track prep is not as important as you are making out, if you are getting wheel slip the traction control nannies will be flashing lights and buzzing at you letting you know.

    If you had a 465 HP 1968, must have been a 427? as the early 454's sucked (longer stroke, and less rpm due to cam profiles that were not optimized until about 1969 or 1970). I have worked on the aluminum version of the L88, which was the original ZL1 as well as many L88's, I can tell you they make WAY over 465 HP on the dyno, with minimal tuning, they easily hit 525HP, and 600 is possible if you are willing to buzz them higher than the dimple connecting rods feel comfortable. GM horsepower ratings were at 5800 RPM (underestimated 427 more accurate on 454), which is really where the 427's start to wake up. We used to ply with the valve lash a bit if we were going to spin them past 6800 RPM. Later we were putting in lighter pistons, polishing / short peening the dimple rods and spinning them 8000 RPM's back in the late 80's, but the valvetrain would not live at those speeds as valve and spring technology was not quite to where it is today. Today we turn blown alcohol 468's in Grand Prix Hydroplanes well past 8000 RPM and they live, even with just steel rods (H Beam) and stainless valves (class rules do not allow titanium) and we have chipped them over 8800 RPM for a final heat if we needed extra chute speed.
     
  10. BlueKonaEV

    BlueKonaEV Well-Known Member

    The 465 HP engine was a 383 small block (stroked 350, .030 over). 10 : 1 compression, flat tapped solid cam. I took some weight off it but it was still a street car that would run 11.80's on street tires and 11.60's on drag radials.. Later I went to a 406 engine, 11.6 :1 compression.. It would run on pump gas with retarded timing. The 406 was a regular 400 engine .030 over with a pretty large solid roller cam. Best with that engine was 10.30's in the 1/4 mile. Suspension was all tricked out for maximum 60' time. I ran a TH200R4 transmission in it with a big first gear which helped my 60' time.
    Later, I went to a 434 small block built on a Dart Iron Eagle race block.. 14 : 1 compression with a HUGE solid roller cam and a 250 shot of nitrous.. 700 HP on engine only and 950 HP with the juice. Car ran 8.90's in winter and low 9's in summer at about 155 mph trap speed.. 9.73 was the best run on engine only.. Most of the time, I would race a 10.0 index (Corvette Challenge Class) without Nitrous.
    Best run ever captured on video was 9.47 with 100 shot of nitrious but I still have the 8 second time slips but no video..

    With 434 small block and 100 shot and powerglide transmission at Richmond Drag Strip, National Corvette Challenge



    Ran a perfect 10.0 on a 10.0 index making me the top qualifier for the race just to lose in first round of elimination as my transbrake failed to hold the car and ran into red light..



    With 406 small block and TH200R4 transmission and radial slicks at South Georgia Motorsports Park



    As for the original post, I would like to take a Model X to the Bradenton Drag Strip and test what it can do. I bet that it will be close to 4.4 seconds..
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  11. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    I see... I thought you were running stock configurations. So you ran a 3.75" stroke in a 4.040 bore in your 383? sounds like you worked your way up, and pretty fun... How long have you been racing? I got into HP cars in 1985 when I bought a 1969 Camaro DZ302, and after hearing the screaming small block, I was hooked. I started hanging out in the local race shop, and although I could not afford the really cool stuff, they took a liking to me and let me help them do a lot of dyno work, as back in those days they were doing cam and valvetrain development work for Crane Cams. We called the Froude dyno, the Lie Detector, and it worked its magic. Lots of other shops brought their 600-1000 HP engines in to run, and they often made 550-600 HP Observed... Haha! Must be the 200 feet above sea level? Or they are using some large correction factors... haha!

    Interestingly I see many old racers that are now interested in EV's not for racing, but for transportation, racers typically understand efficiency as that is the entire racing pursuit. Its pretty cool.
     
  12. BlueKonaEV

    BlueKonaEV Well-Known Member

    Yes, I slowly worked my way up to running 8's. It's too dangerous to get a car that fast without slowly working your way to get there. the 383 was 4.03 bore with 3.75 stroke. Car war light as I took a lot of weight off.. I also used all light weight brakes and wheels etc. I cut down on rotating mass a lot. I drag raced from 2001 to 2010.. I mostly raced corvette events. I won a few and came in 2nd and 3rd a few times. Only once I raced at the National Corvette Challenge in Richmond Virginia and I managed to be the top qualifier with a dead on run on the 10.0 index. I also did a lot of foot brake bracket racing with my street corvettes. I had over 13 different Vettes over the years.. I still have a '68 Corvette but not the race Corvette anymore.. The one I have right now is matching numbers with only a few minor performance enhancements.. My Kona Electric is likely faster than my current Vette in the 1/4 mile. Base '68 Vettes only ran in the 15.5 second range in the 1/4 mile and I saw videos of stock Kona Electrics running in the 14.80's and therefore faster than the Vette.
    I had all my cars dyno tested. I don't have the dyno sheets anymore.. Too long time ago.. I never dyno tested with the nitrous.. The engine dyno for the last 434 race engine was just over 700 engine HP. I was running open pipes, so no restriction from the exhaust system as also electric water pump to minimize parasitic loss. I gave up racing when we me and my wife had our first child.. Wife didn't want me to risk my life drag racing.. Sold the race car in pieces as I was unable to get decent money for it in one piece.. I was still running independent rear suspension on the Corvette which was expensive as the rear end setup was over $8000 alone.. The 434 was about $15000.. I still have a 406 small block with 600 HP sitting in my garage for 11 years which was my backup engine.. Built that engine myself..

    I went into EV's as they make sense.. I wouldn't mind racing them either. The instant torque is absolutely amazing.. I drive 30k miles per year and my savings driving EV's are insane. I would not go back to a ICE car as daily driver. I can see myself getting myself a C8 Corvette as a weekend driver in 2 to 3 years but never as a daily driver..
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019
  13. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member


    I see, I have never been into drag racing (other than stoplight to stoplight as a teenager) I was involved in more circle racing, endurance stuff. And then hydroplanes which present an entirely new set of challenges both from a setup and engine building standpoint. Sounds like you experienced that they can all be money pits... :)

    I also really enjoy the EV, and our E-Tron is about as close to a perfect family car as I could imagine, however I feel there is some passion missing in the noise, and excitement department. Racing an EV would be boring, as they are too consistent, and do not require the driver skill as much.

    As for dyno testing nitrous motors, that can be exciting. We have tested quite a few, from single stage plate systems to 3 stage plate / port systems. I was running the 540 we built for my 67 Chevelle, port nitrous tests on the dyno, the header collector disconnected right on the press of the button, which was pretty exciting to hear. You could see a solid blue flame out of the collectors when the nitrous was flowing. We had to turn off the lights in the test cell and try that again. Unfortunately once we got too much exhaust leaking into the test cell the engine went rich and power fell way off. I tried the nitrous on the dyno 4 or 5 times on that motor, but never hooked up the nitrous in the car, I was a bit scared of it as the motor made just under 700 HP (92 octane pump gas) without, and my car was not tubbed and had stock suspension, it was a bit scary without the spray. This was back in the early 90's, I think if I wanted to make that power today I would just buy a supercharged LS from GM, and have more fun for less money, all while being better for the environment. We have been seeing a lot of people putting the supercharged LS's into just about everything, and they work great.

    As for the C8, I will be surprised if I do not buy one, even though it makes no sense for my family. Thats a pretty car, and a few friends have driven them, and said they are amazing handling, and the interior is much better put together than the previous generation. I think GM is going to sell a ton of them.
     
  14. BlueKonaEV

    BlueKonaEV Well-Known Member

    The E-tron is a well engineered car. It does not scream EV like others. That applies to the Kona too. If it wasn't for the lack of a front grill, you'd think that it's the gas Kona. I'm very happy with the Kona. Perfect car for my needs. I'll give it to my daughter when she turns 16 and will get myself another EV at that point. I can't wait to see what battery technology will be around by then..
     
    David Green likes this.
  15. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    Agree, not sure how old your daughter is, but in the next few years there will be many new EV choices, and she is a lucky girl to get a Kona EV as a new driver.
     
  16. BlueKonaEV

    BlueKonaEV Well-Known Member

    She is only 7, so it will be 9 years before she will get the Kona. Car will remain in my name due to the lifetime warranty on the battery which only applies to original owner.. Planning on never selling the Kona..Lifetime warranty on the most expensive part of the car. Can't beat that.
     

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