limit of 2 dc fast charges per 24 hours

Discussion in 'bZ4X' started by Tod Detre, Feb 17, 2023.

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  1. Tod Detre

    Tod Detre New Member

    We got a bz4x at the end of November 2022. Over xmas holiday we discovered there's a hard coded limit of 2 dc fast charging sessions per 24 hours. Now we knew the bz4x is slow with dc charging when we bought the car, but this seems ridiculous. A trip that takes 9 hours with a gas car took me 23 hours. The weather wasn't even that cold during the trip. Several of my charging sessions were done in 55F temps.
    electriceddy likes this.
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  3. Never saw anything relating to this in the minimal advertising from the manufacturer. That seems ridiculous. I wonder if Solterra shares the same limitations.
    It appears it does:
    Because in the fight not to stress the batteries, precisely to make them last longer, Toyota has as of today introduced a limitation of two quick charges per day with no limitations on charging power. Unfortunately, this is not optimal for everyone, especially not for the taxi industry, and others.

    Therefore, Toyota will now change how many charging stops you can make during a day, before the car automatically kicks in and reduces the charging effect. Currently, it is not known if they will add one or two more, but at least they are working on the matter"
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2023
    Tod Detre likes this.
  4. Qisl

    Qisl Active Member

    It'll be interesting to see how a better route planner takes this into account.
    Tod Detre likes this.
  5. How do you know that? What did it do to stop you from charging a third time.

    I have a Solterra and have DC fast charged more than 2 times in a day, and no problem. Basically the same car, built by Toyota.

    I should ask, too, where are you located? And which battery do you have?
  6. Tod Detre

    Tod Detre New Member

    It does not stop the charging, but it reduces the max kw input to below 15kw. Sometimes it's 14kw, sometimes it's 10. I have documented graphs where it went down to 1kw.

    I also wondered about the Solterra. I don't have one to test, but they are essentially the same car. However, this is a software restriction so Subaru may not have it.

    We live in Maine, USA and we have the AWD version. The charges where we were restriced in kw were not on particularly cold days. One was during 50sF and one was 45F.
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  8. Tod Detre

    Tod Detre New Member

    If Toyota truly believes this will make their batteries last longer, than why isn't the warranty any better than other EVs on the market. Toyota "claims" their batteries will last longer all over the place, but if you look at the actual warranty it's the same as everyone else's.
  9. You didn't say what your SOC% for your 3rd charge. Charging is always slower with higher SOC. I have charged more than twice with mine, and never experienced a lower charge rate than the first two, when the SOC was the same or lower. And there are no reports on the Solterra or bZ4X forums of restrictions with more than two charges. This same article was discussed there but has long since been debunked.

    Having said that there is an issue with slow DC fast charging in general, and Toyota has acknowledged that. It is expected they will issue a software update later this year to address that, as well as making the GOM range more accurate. Right now zero is not zero and it is estimated that it still has 10 or 20% SOC and range left.
  10. Tod Detre

    Tod Detre New Member

    The most recent time this happened, it suddenly dropped from ~37kw to ~15kw at 47% charge. bz4x-charge-dropoff.png
  11. You got a pretty decent starting charge at 45 or so kW. What was you SOC and outside temp at that time. Best I have seen on mine so far is 35kW. As for the drop, they do start to throttle down with more SOC, but usually not down to 15kW. It could be the charger, too, and it may have encountered additional loads with other people charging. Some chargers like to throttle down early.

    How often do you fast charge? Are you on a trip?
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  13. Tod Detre

    Tod Detre New Member

    The screenshot as from the last time it happened. The ambient temperature was a it above 40F. It was on a 350kw ChargePoint charger and no one else was there.

    We have had this happen on EVgo, ChargePoint, Electrify America, and at a local Nissan dealership. I have logs and screenshots.

    I had to take a trip from Maine to Baltimore. It takes a gas car 9 hours to drive. I planned 14 because I knew that he bz4x was not a fast charger. It took me 23 hours. At times I was reduced to 1kw on a dcfc.

    I have taken the bz4x to the dealership and I have in writing that it is "working as designed."
  14. I am not sure what you are expecting. Is this your first EV? This car is not a trip car with its lower range and slower charging. Having said that, it can do fine with shorter trips and a little planning, and knowing how and when to charge. In general, plan your driving to start your fast charge as near zero SOC as possible and don't try to charge over 80%. And overnight charge to 100% on a L2 charger before you begin your trip.

    The best features of this car are its off-road capabilities. If that is not what you want, you bought the wrong car. There are many other EVs that are better trip cars.
  15. Tod Detre

    Tod Detre New Member

    As far as I know, no other EV on the market puts in this restriction of how many DCFC in 24 hours. I have confirmation from my dealership that it is a built in restriction. We knew this car was not a fast charger when we got it, but we really like our Toyota dealer. We've used them for our 2010 Prius with 190,000 miles and 2015 Highlander with I think 150000 miles. We wanted a car that my wife can drive to work and level 2 charge 90% of the time. However, we also need to occasionally go on a road trip. We were ok with the trips taking longer due to charge times. We planned out trips with the EV with ABRP. Avoiding charging over 70-80% and trying to get down to low charge warning before planning stops. I've been researching EV's for years and thought we were ok with their current limitations. We wanted to try to stick with Toyota because we love the way they work and their known reliability. Even though Toyota doesn't back up their claims of better battery life with a better warranty, we trusted them. Then we were blindsided with this restriction that is not advertised anywhere nor do their sales staff know it exists.

    If you go to the Toyota website and look at the bz4x faq you can find this warning: "DC Fast Charging should be limited to two cycles of charging (Low Light to 80%) per day throughout the year." However, even with hindsight it is not clear. It says "should be limited" not "will be limited" also, what does the "per day throughout the year" mean?

    There are a lot of things we love about this car. The ground clearance is awesome. It handles Maine snow storms like a champ. The way that it is designed to work like a gas or hybrid car is great for those who want that. If all you need is to drive around town it is a great car. The app needs work because trying to share it with more than one person is broken and this DCFC limit needs to be made clear up front. This car will work great for a lot of people who don't need it for road trips, but the DCFC limit makes it impossible to use for that purpose and they hide that restriction. Other EVs don't have that restriction. Even the Bolt lets you DCFC as much as you want as long as you stop the DCFC at 75%. I can work with that. DCFC is slow over 75-90% anyway so why would I want to do it? Just stop more often.

    To be clear, the restriction isn't exactly two dc fast charges. If you go from 20-40%, you can do that several times. The restriction seems to be the equivalent kwh to two "Low Light" to 80% charges. The screenshot above is technically the 5th DCFC in 24 hours. We did one 61 min (39.53kWh), one 46 min (12.25kWh), one 56 min (42.69kWh) charges. All of those were from low light warning. We did another 17 min (9.1 kWh) charge because it was a convenient place to stop. The last charge was the screenshot above and that is from before we pulled it off. The total was 29 min (17.23 kWh) for a total of 121.8 kWh. We have the AWD model so it has a 72.8kWh battery pack. 72.8x2=145.6 145.6x.8=116.48kWh So with that math it certainly seems like that is what is going on.

    So to your question of what I'm expecting, I'm expecting Toyota to be honest with people. If they KNOW their car can't do road trips, fine. Just tell people that before they buy it so they can go buy practically any other EV on the market. Also, I shouldn't have to guess or do the math above to find out when I *think* my car will stop charging. Toyota should provide the formula in the manual so that I can plan out exactly what I can do with my car.
  16. Again, very much seems like you had unrealistic expectations. There were no surprises with my car, and it has actually exceeded my expectations in many ways. I knew before I bought about its charge rate, and that is no problem with me. I have gone on several ski trips with it, and it worked great for me. But I have no intentions of ever taking this car on a long trip, esp if I am in a hurry.

    I had a Kona EV before, and it too, would charge slow sometimes, esp in cold weather. In summer it was much better. All EVs are that way. I have no doubt your car will do better in the summer. But again, it is not a trip car. And I have never heard anyone say it is, on the forums or a dealer. Take it for what it is, or get a different EV.
  17. Tod Detre

    Tod Detre New Member

    Again, very much seams like you don't understand the problem. We knew it was a slow charger. We knew it could have even slower (or no) DCFC in cold weather. How many miles did you put on your car for your ski trip? How many kWh did you DCFC in 24 hours? If you went skiing, you probably spend a significant amount of the day actually skiing, and not driving. To trigger this issue, you need to be driving all day. Yes, some people will never do that and so won't ever run into the restriction. However, some people DO need to drive that much. Maybe (like us) not very often, but it still happens. If Toyota had been up front about this restriction, we would have factored it into our purchasing decision. However, they don't even put it in the owner's manual.
  18. I understand your problem exactly, unrealistic expectations. You obviously did not research your car properly before you bought it. The car reviews and forums were pretty clear about the lower range and slow charging. It is NOT a trip car. That should not have been a surprise to you.

    My ski trips are about 400 kms return. The drive is from sea level up to 5000' to the hill, sometimes in cold and snowy conditions. I charge twice, on the way up and then down at free chargers, about 1/2 hour each time and come home with about 100 kms remaining. But could probably get away with just one charge. Sometimes I do a 3rd charge at a free charger near home just to top off. I know what to expect and allow for that. I will be doing that same trip tomorrow again. I only go skiing if it looks like a good powder day, which means the drive up could be tough with a big overnight snowfall and will cost extra range. I allow for that. BTW, this car handles snow great.

    Other than that, it is just driving around town, and plugging in at home. In summer, I will be driving to our cabin on a rough FSR road. We have an off-grid solar system, and will be charging the car there at no cost.

    So I have exactly what I want and expected, so I am very happy with the car so far.

    I do have a trip car on order, but until I get it will continue to use our ICE car for longer trips.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2023
  19. RPH

    RPH New Member

    Hello, I’m a guy from The Netherlands and received my Solterra on DEC, 29th 2022. I want to share some Solterra experiences to help people. For me the comment of RP "I understand your problem exactly, unrealistic expectations" is not fair and off topic!

    I had similar discussions with Subaru Benelux. Meanwhile my Subaru dealer agrees with my conclusions; fast charging and WLTP range is unacceptabel for this expensive car! For the same price I drove a Kia EV6 AWD and for nearly half the price I drove a Kia E-Niro. But hé, I'm a Subaru S-AWD lover too for decades!
    So based on the figures in the (sales)flyer and a test drive I purchased the car nearly 7 months ago.

    On is my post on Solterra charging problems. And the next post ( is maybe positive news. Subaru (and Toyota) are seriously working on a software update.
  20. I already posted about the slow charging and coming software updates. See post #7.

    When I said unrealistic expectations, this is a guy that took his new bZ4X on a long trip that normally takes 9 hours of driving with an ICE car. This was in the winter and then he complained about the slow charging and low range. He should have known that this car is NOT a good trip car. That is actually a big understatement. It's primary advantage over other EVs is its high clearance and off-road capabilities. So if you do take it on a long trip, you better be prepared for a longer time trip. There are many other cars that are better trip cars, like the Ioniq 5 and Ioniq 6 which are super fast charging (10-80% in 18 minutes). Also he needs to know that in winter all EVs have less range and charge slower. And specs are always best case, ie summer and not hwy driving.

    I have a Solterra, and it does everything I want and more. It has actually far exceeded my expectations. Its driving qualities and comfort are exceptionally good. I use it for short trips like going skiing and hiking (400 km day trips) and around town. In summer will use it to go to our cabin which is off a very rough FSR road. We also have an off-grid solar system there which I will use to charge the car. Meanwhile I have pre-orders in for an Ioniq 5 which will be our trip car.

    Again, let me repeat, this is NOT a good trip car. That is not what you are paying for when you buy this car. But you will not find a better off-road BEV for this money, at least not at this time.
  21. RPH

    RPH New Member

    I still think your comments are off topic and the most important thing not very constructive and helpful in any way. I've the same problem with your comments on the Solterra forum.

    On topic.
    I was the first Solterra buyer in The Netherlands 9 months ago. At that time there was only a Solterra available at my dealer to preview. Not for a testdrive!
    My dealer never let me down (for decades) so fine by me!
    No tests available then. Only the specs in the folder and they are OK. It could, should and would be a great Subaru off-road and on-road(tripper) EV!

    After my car was parked for 6 months in a Japanese harbour finally it came to The Netherlands and on december 29th 2022 it was delivered to me. Yes, by then I knew the fast charging curve tests of the similar BZ4x where terrible. Yes, by then I knew the WLTP range never matches the promised values in medium/cold wheater. But in 6 to 7 months maybe they solved a lot of problems, I thought. Subaru disappointed me and I let them know! Where in the sales folder is notified that you can only fast charge 2 times within 24 hours? Where in the folder I can find that the netto battery capacity is only near 60kW in stead of the 70kW. They have taken the customer complaints seriously in Europe. And there is no way back. Last weekend first OTA update for multimedia system is installed. And the technician from Subaru Benelux confirmed that the charge/range update will follow soon. This probably includes a SoC on the display!

    Off topic.
    Drive another car for every occasion?!
    In The Netherlands (or other European countries) we don't have that luxury. Some people don't even have money for one EV.
    Best off-roader (EV)? I drove a Kia EV6. Then you have a VW ID4/ID5 GTX and a Skoda Enyaq Coupe RS. Same pricing, better fast charging, more range and power. But I want a Solterra for better driving, more comfort, better looks, unique etc...and above all because it is a Subaru!

    And best off-road vehicle ever my sold Subaru Forester.
  22. Well, if you had been reading the Solterra forum, you should have known early on that the Solterra would not be a good trip car. You had been forewarned, and you still went ahead and bought it. And now you complain.

    Range of 222 miles and 1 hour to charge to 80% as per specs does NOT make a good trip car. And this is in ideal conditions, not winter and hwy driving. Maybe this is your first EV, sounds like it to me. I had a Kona EV for 3 years and got to drive it in winter and summer. While it had more range than the Solterra, it also did not charge fast, esp in winter. So I learned too, that it is NOT a good trip car. If you want a good trip car, buy an Ioniq 5 or 6, or the Kia equivalents. The Solterra's best attributes are its off-road and snow capabilities. If that is not important to you, you have the wrong car.
  23. Tod Detre

    Tod Detre New Member

    We knew this much when we got it. The point of my post is that it is EVEN WORSE than what they stated. There were times I was limited to less than 15kw with <55% SoC and 55F ambient temps.

    I will agree with you that with the current charging limitations, this is not the car for me. However, Toyota DID NOT make the extent of the limitations known before my purchase. This is wrong and they should be held accountable.

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