L2 War: Tesla destination charger vs J1772

Discussion in 'General' started by bwilson4web, Feb 11, 2018.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    It appears Tesla is rolling out a proprietary L2 charger, the destination charger, versus the SAE standard J1772. Already we're seeing adapters both ways but I'm uneasy about this.

    Pro-Tesla, their 'destination charger' ensures they have an L2 plug that benefits no one else ... unless one has an adapter AND the 'destination charger' does vehicle authentication. In contrast the J1772 is nearly universal BUT becomes a problem of 'the commons.'

    I own two cars with J1772 sockets so I have a preference for the open standard. But who do you call when a public charger is broken?

    As for fast DC charging, the SuperCharger network is in the lead. This is especially true because we're not seeing EV manufactures installing in parallel the CCS chargers.

    I admire Tesla solving the whole problem. But would prefer to see more universal power solutions.

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator Staff Member

    Network maintenance seems to be a problem for non-Tesla L2 stations. Even networks run for profit seem to have a hard time keeping them reliably online.

    I'm not sure, though, that there's really a lot of competition between the two standards. L2 should mostly be used for plug-in hybrids, apart from locations at "destinations," ie, hotels.

    Of course, the whole thing could have been avoided if the SAE had of supported the Tesla plug, which is a more elegant and flexible design, instead of siding with automakers who didn't want to give Tesla any oxygen.
     
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  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    I'm in the thick of it:
    [​IMG]
    Whole Foods J1772 January 30. I reported problem to Whole Foods. Whole Foods staff reported it is a 'landlord' problem.

    [​IMG]
    Whole Foods J1772 February 16. Spoke with landlord who said it was a Whole Foods problem. Regardless, I've documented the problem and three solutions:
    1. Turn off broken EVSE until fixed.
      • Use J1772 extension safely affixed to broken connector while a permanent fix is worked.
    2. Have a licensed electrician replace the cable and J1772 with an aftermarket unit, ~$250 parts + labor.
    3. Replace orphan, GE 30A pedestal with a ChargePoint, $4,500 part + labor.
    As for Blink or EVgo, you can get more but you can't pay less.
    Use PlugShare to look up Hampton Inn, 328 Providence Main St NW, Huntsville, AL 35806, to see what I mean.
    I was not part of those discussions but I see the problem with the J1772 as too many are pointing at the other guy as the problem:
    • Irresponsible EV makers who do nothing to setup and maintain a compatible charging network. It is someone else's responsibility and we lock up our EVSE outside of business hours.
    • Irresponsible EVSE makers who do nothing to document how a local owner/electrician can self maintenance their unit. It is someone else's responsibility or buy our maintenance service.
    • Irresponsible EV owners who do not read their manual about 'locking the car locks the J1772'. No problem, they can rip it apart and let someone else deal with the broken EVSE.
    I'm in the middle of this problem at Whole Foods. I'm the responsible EV owner trying to organize a repair of an EVSE I don't own but like to use.

    Bob Wilson
     
  4. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator Staff Member

    Man, that's crazy that they're so ready to orphan charging points. Also nuts that people will actually break a plug because they don't know how it works. Good luck.

    I looked at the location on Plugshare you indicated, saw Tesla destination chargers and J1772 L2 chargers. Not sure what I was supposed to draw from that.
     
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    In effect the Teslas can use either one but the rest of us are limited to the J1772 (unless we get a destination charger to J1772 adapter.) Being ICEd is bad enough but Tesled would be insult to injury.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  6. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator Staff Member

    Well, if you had a Super Charger from Diginow and their adapter, you could use the Tesla destination chargers, though not the Tesla Superchargers. They're very popular with Zero Motorcycle owners, and, as you can see in the short video below, it's been installed in a LEAF. Can't imagine it would be good for your warranty though.
    (Here's a link to a story I wrote about it for Autoblog)

     
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Thanks!

    I visited their web site:
    https://diginow.it/supercharger.php

    Please understand I'm concerned about the pilot signal, protocol converter. They appear to offer four power levels, 4.6 kW, 7.9 kW, 9.9 kW, and 13.2 kW. We have a 7.2 kW, BMW i3-REx and a 3.3 kW, Prius Prime, but this begs the question of why do they have four specific power rated converters?

    They also reference a 12V supply amp rating: 4A, 9A, 14A, and 19A. I don't know of any 12V power on the J1772 so where does it go?

    These are technical questions I'll send to DigiNow when or if I get more interested. So far, there are only three, Tesla destination chargers on the opposite side of town along with three, J1772s. I really need to understand more about how these are configured and their 'operational scenario.' For example, does Tesla provide a destination and J1772 on a single or separate power circuits? Is there a bus configuration that load-shares all from a single power feed?

    I wish them luck but the only destination chargers I know of are 12.6 miles one way which is half the Prius Prime EV range and a third the range of our BMW i3-REx. After charging over an hour, I would still have to drive home.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

  9. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    How is it a bad thing for Tesla to be installing more Destination Chargers?

    Any plug-in EV can use a Tesla Destination Charger if it has one of the adapters described above by Dominick. And even if you don't have one, it's not like Tesla adding more chargers is taking anything away from you.

    I look forward to the time when all EVs use one charging standard, and I view the lack of any real standard to be one of the things holding back the EV revolution.

    But even before EV makers agree on a universal charging standard -- or have one imposed on them -- I don't see why we need to look at more chargers being installed in different places as a bad thing.
     
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    How is it a bad thing for Tesla to be installing more Destination Chargers?

    For Tesla, it is a brilliant strategy to promote their EVs. It also reveals how poorly the other EV sellers are doing. They act as if once the car reaches their property line, it is no longer their problem.

    If the other EV dealers would just locate their L1/L2 chargers in a 24x7 parking area at the dealerships, the problem would be solved.

    Any plug-in EV can use a Tesla Destination Charger if it has one of the adapters described above by Dominick. And even if you don't have one, it's not like Tesla adding more chargers is taking anything away from you.


    In one respect, my plugin hybrids gives a built-in L+ charger. Listening to Autoline After Hours, it appears Nissan is building in the ability to plugin to any 120VAC or 240VAC outlet with a Leaf with vehicle based, L1 and L2 charging electronics. No need for an external EVSE. It is a reasonable response to bypass the plugin war by connecting directly to the grid.

    If Tesla offers a Destination-to-J1772 or Supercharger-to-CCS converter, it would be a sensible product because I wouldn't have to worry about the converter failing the pilot signal conversion. I've done 'reverse engineering' interfaces in the past but found there was always something that meant I could use it but nearly impossible to teach to someone else.

    I look forward to the time when all EVs use one charging standard, and I view the lack of any real standard to be one of the things holding back the EV revolution.

    We agree on the goal. What Tesla is doing is encouraging Nissan to go direct to the grid. Tesla is making $500 L1 EVSE and $4-6,000 L2 EVSE a technological dead-end.

    I listened to the Autoline After Hours that included Christopher Reed, VP of Engineering Nissan Leaf, hoping someone would ask why they didn't do a plugin or something like the trailer range extender. It never came up.

    But even before EV makers agree on a universal charging standard -- or have one imposed on them -- I don't see why we need to look at more chargers being installed in different places as a bad thing.


    It is good for Tesla but not so good for non-Tesla owners of which I am one. Independent companies providing J1172 and CCS standard chargers are faced with a growing, incompatible Tesla charging network. It leaves non-Tesla, EV owners having to find 'gray market' converters or external grid sockets to plugin.

    Meanwhile, the clever plugin hybrid owners just briefly stop at the next gas station and:
    [​IMG]

    Bob Wilson
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
  11. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    I'd call the Tesla adapters "third party", since they're not made by Tesla. But not "gray market".

    From Wikipedia:

    A grey market... is the trade of a commodity through distribution channels that are legal but unintended by the original manufacturer or trade mark proprietor.​

    (Don't blame me for Wikipedia not knowing how to spell "gray". :p )
    -
     
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  12. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    [​IMG]
    Damn it! I'm an Engineer not an English Major.

    Bob Wilson
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
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