Is it ok to use 240 level 2 charger every day

Discussion in 'General' started by ES-N-D-OC, Aug 11, 2018.

To remove this ad click here.

  1. ES-N-D-OC

    ES-N-D-OC New Member

    I have been using level 2 charger almost every day at work and yesterday was at the mall and they had EVgo level 2 available . Signed up and charged. Another guy with bmw i3 was charging as well and he said that I’m not supposed to use level 2 every day that it’s supposedly deteriorates the battery over time and won’t charge fully. I leased the car so not keeping for over 3 yrs anyways but is this true? Will the battery actually deteriorate?

    I’ve owned since July 4th and only used maybe less then 1/4 tank of gas so it’s great!!!!
  2. To remove this ad click here.

  3. jdonalds

    jdonalds Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't doubt if the faster charging of Level 2 somewhat impacts the life of the battery. But I fully expect our Clarity Battery to work well beyond 150,000 miles. Level 2 charge times are so quick that we often get a full charge in the middle of the day, between local drives. It's pretty common for us to put 50+ miles per day all EV on the car. Our charge level rarely falls below 30 miles because we are able to charge mid day at home. I wouldn't trade that for a slightly better charge 10 years down the line.
  4. ES-N-D-OC

    ES-N-D-OC New Member

    Ok great that’s what I was thinking that Honda would have made a better product vs Nissan and hopefully we wouldn’t have this issue.
  5. Viking79

    Viking79 Well-Known Member

    Yes, we use the L2 multiple times per day at max power. Even at 7 kW it is only 0.4C (charge rate vs battery capacity). This is still slower charging (I think this rate is called "rapid charging"). Typically 1C and above is fast charging, for Clarity this would require 17 kW charging for the PHEV, and even 1C for most battery chemistries is still not much added stress.
    manybees and KentuckyKen like this.
  6. jeff10236

    jeff10236 Member

    The DC fast chargers (the ones that charge 80% in 30-40min) that many BEV can use degrade the battery faster than regular chargers. I think the level 2 chargers cause no more degradation than the standard level 1 chargers. I only use public charge stations since I live in an apartment with no outlets available for charging so I guess I'll find out for sure in a few years, but I'm not concerned about it. I certainly don't think we'll see the kinds of problems Leaf owners see since we have liquid cooled batteries (a much better TMS than they use).
  7. To remove this ad click here.

  8. LaCucaracha

    LaCucaracha New Member

    At 240 volts, the level 2 charger is just fine for every day use. It’s really not a ”fast charge”. The electronics protect from over charge or draining the battery cells too much. The higher 480v chargers can effect battery life because the heat generated can degrade the batteries. That said, I doubt if it’s enough to matter over a few years. What is more likely to impact the batteries is your Clarity being parked in the sun or below freezing, hot and cold temperature extremes will greatly impact the life of the batteries over time as with any rechargible battery pack. Honda has done a good job insulating these so we will see over time.
    manybees and lem like this.
  9. bfd

    bfd Active Member

    Eventually you'll start seeing your range decrease over the years. After six years of plugging in my former plug-in, the actual EV range (as well as the estimated range) had fallen, and battery capacity (when "full") had actually decreased by about 20% at that point according to my records. So there's some degradation over time that you can't really do much about.
  10. ryd994

    ryd994 Active Member

    Battery management (BMS) is important here. Mind mention you last model?
    Worth to mention that Clarity has liquid cooled battery, so temperature management is good.
  11. bfd

    bfd Active Member

    Prius 2012 Plug in, so its BMS was solid. Air-cooled battery, and we live in the far southwest corner of the US, so in the summer it can heat up - but not excessively like it would in the deserts.
  12. To remove this ad click here.

  13. KentuckyKen

    KentuckyKen Well-Known Member

    Since the Clarity has a water/glycol based cooling loop I would expect our battery degradation and useful life to be more on par with the Volt or Tesla (same cooling) than the older Prius (air cooling) or especially the pre ‘19 Leaf with no cooling. Time will tell.

    Also, based on other posts of max draw from wall for a full charge and max delivered power to the car’s charger, it appears that Honda’s BMS keeps a quite adequate buffer at the top and bottom ends of the SOC. Coupled with the max Level 2 32 A EVSE charging of around 7.2 to 7.4 A, the battery packs are not being significantly stressed by Level 2 charging.

    I think Honda’s engineering approach has made the Clarity as foolproof as possible and as easy to just get in and drive like your old gas mobile as possible.
    I also think our attempts at hypermiling and babying the battery will only gain us a few % improvement and so are not really worth the effort for the small gains achieved.
    Just my 2 cents, and you get what you pay for!
    Smitty74 and Texas22Step like this.
  14. ryd994

    ryd994 Active Member

    Battery coolant is not water based. It's some non conductive fluid and must be serviced by Honda technician only. I guess you're talking about generator coolant. That's the same coolant as engine coolant.
  15. Heino

    Heino Active Member

    Level 2 charging should be okay for the most part. It's the Level 3 charges (which the Clarity cannot use) that would be problematic long-term. Think Tesla Supercharger network. Tesla intentionally disables super-charging on it's vehicles after a certain max number of uses to protect the battery.
  16. Ben Washburn

    Ben Washburn Member

    I'm thinking the single best thing you can do is keep it in a garage, especially if attached to the house, to moderate the temperature extremes. I've also read that not letting it sit at 100% charge for long times is better; I'm probably going to shoot for low 40s or one bar down in general, but I'm not going to be fanatical about it. I'm retired so I don't have a daily commute anymore, so 90% of the time 25 miles is all I'd need.

    Not to anthropomorphize a battery, but it makes 'common' sense to me that not letting sit at 'max storing strain' all the time may be better. So I'm probably not going to be plugging it in every night 'just because', unless it's below about 35 I'll just go with it unless I know I have a long trip the next day--I do have a 50-mile trip each way once a week. I think that once-a-week HV mode, maybe an hour in total, will probably be good for the car in the long run.
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2018
  17. KentuckyKen

    KentuckyKen Well-Known Member

    Ben, you are correct that repeated cycles of max charging and full depletion are not only harmful, but will destroy a Li-ion battery. However Honda (as all EV mfg’s) has built into their Battery Management System (BMS) a buffer or cushion at the top and bottom ends of the state of charge (SOC) for this very reason.
    This is why you see 2 bars when the EV ranges goes to 0 and the car enters HV mode. At this point you have deleted all the usable charge allowed and the 2 bars indicates the buffer charge remaining to protect the battery from being completely discharged.
    Similarly, here is a buffer at the top end of the SOC to do what you are proposing to do manually.

    How do we know this since it’s not in the manual?
    The most anyone has reported their EVSE has delivered to the Clarity’s on board charger is 14.1 to 14.4 kW. You must then take into account the loss to heat by the on board charger not being 100% efficient. If you assume a 90% efficiency (I’ve seen assumptions of 85-95%), then the 17 kW battery is only being charged approx. 12.5 to 13 kWs. Thus the amount of buffer seems to be 4-4.5 kW or about 24 to 27% roughly. This is on par with reports of the Volt and Tesla BMS from their forums. What we don’t know is how that total buffer is split between the top and bottom.

    So, is trying to “baby” the battery necessary? Probably not.
    But will it make the battery last longer, ie have a higher SOC as it ages?
    Possibly, and here is where the assumptions and conjecture enter in.
    Certainly it can only help and not hurt to do this, but my gut feeling is that it won’t affect the battery longevity by more than a very few percent so it’s not worth it to me. This is because Honda is already using a buffer to keep from fully charging the battery pack.
    Guess we’ll just have to compare notes in 8-10 years ans see whose Battery Capacity Signal is higher.

    One caveat: Several have theorized this the BMS does battery cell balancing when the battery is charged to its full usable capacity, ie until charging stops. Supporting this theory is that the manual stating to fully charge before driving. So if you implement your strategy, it would be prudent to periodically fully charge.
    Richard_arch74 and Smitty74 like this.
  18. Ben Washburn

    Ben Washburn Member

    I would definitely fully charge lots of times. But somewhere I read that if it's going to sit for multiple days it's ideal to be around 50%. But I'd forgotten about the buffer at the top end--the one at the bottom is obvious. Still, I think I will just be happy at 30 or so if that's what I get back with and not put it through a charging cycle at all. If I had a significant commute I'd probably think differently, but my day usually consists of less than 10 mile trips anyhow.
    KentuckyKen likes this.
  19. su_A_ve

    su_A_ve Active Member

    Lol the 50% is what the dealer says, since most of the Claritys sold only have this much charge...

    The fact that there is already a buffer built in for both top and bottom, to me, means not have to worry about it. My commute is about 25 miles total but I end up putting an extra 10 almost every other day, running errands. And since I have free charging at work, I prefer to err on the side of caution and charge fully every day. Come the weekends, and I'll only charge enough so I have about 15 miles EV left - enough to get me to work.
  20. Atul Thakkar

    Atul Thakkar Active Member

    If we go and think deeper from cost stand point , I read some where that cost of battery currently is around $ 200/KW and it will reduce to $ 100/KW in next three years. with that the cost of battery is 200 x 20 =$ 4000/- in today's cost after three years it will be $ 2000/-. what would be 8 to 10 years down the road. Why worry too much today ?.....Enjoy car and charge how it works for you. I routinely charge with 220V level 2 charger.
    manybees likes this.
  21. DVoran

    DVoran Member

    Couldn’t agree more with Atul’s comment. Plug it in and forget about it. Also, just drive this wonderful car and laugh all the way to the bank. You could’ve paid a heap more for a Tesla or BMW and in the end have some issues.

    Sent from my iPad using Inside EVs
    manybees and 02Duck like this.
  22. 02Duck

    02Duck New Member

  23. KentuckyKen

    KentuckyKen Well-Known Member

    One of our very informed forum members posted a while back on the math of charging. I can’t remember who to the credit to but they said if you divide the charging rate by the battery size you get a C value. If it’s below 1 you are not significantly affecting the health or longevity of the battery and if it’s below 0.5 you’re golden.
    So our Claritys max out on a 32 Amp EVSE which typically delivers 7.2 KWs to the car’s charger which can’t be 100% efficient so let’s say 7kW. The battery is a 17 kW battery (0nly about 14 kW usable), so 7/17= 0.4C.
    So there is absolutely no problem doing all your charging on a 32 Amp Level 2 EVSE and there is no meaningful advantage to Level 1 charging. The defense rests; case closed.

    If you posted the C value, chime in so I can give you the credit you deserve.
    Pushmi-Pullyu likes this.

Share This Page