How much is it to make an icev into a phev?

Discussion in 'General' started by The chord, Nov 26, 2018.

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  1. The chord

    The chord New Member

    I found a list of the extra components of a phev compared to a regular icev and approx prices. I considered a 10kwh battery.

    Power motor (3-phase AC synchronous motor, maximum output 80kW, maximum torque 280N・m) EM61 type 1000€
    Inverter (IGBT x 6) 500€
    DC-DC converter (doubles as a junction box) ???
    Power transmission system (reduction gear, reduction ratio: 7.937, without gear-shifting) model: RE1F61A ???
    Lithium-ion battery module (total voltage: 360V, capacity 24kWh, output 90kW or higher) 2000€
    BMS (Battery Management System) 100€
    Collision detection system ???
    Onboard charger (input voltage: 100VAC~264VAC, output: 3.3kW maximum) ???
    Noise filter (charging noise suppressor) ???

    Can anybody confirm/correct this table?
    I'm not talking about transformation kits but car makers willing to create serial phev using current icev models
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2018
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  3. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    That's a very broad question, and it depends on a lot of variables. One variable is how expensive the ICEV is; another variable is now many units of the PHEV version will be made per year. If the gasmobile is more expensive than others, then the PHEV version will also be more expensive than other PHEVs. If the auto maker makes 100,000 units of a PHEV model per year, then the unit cost will be much less than if it makes only 10,000 units of that model per year.

    But here is one semi-answer:

    Mitsubishi Outlander (ICEV): MSRP $24,695
    Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV: MSRP $35,795

    Difference: $10,100

    Of course, that's a difference in price... not cost, which is what you were asking about. Also, given Mitsu's reluctance to make and sell a U.S. version of the vehicle (as shown by the many delays before Mitsu finally started selling a U.S. version), it seems pretty clear that Mitsu is making a lower profit margin off the PHEV version. So the additional unit cost to Mitsu for making the PHEV version is probably even greater (as a percentage) than the difference in MSRP prices indicate.

    I won't attempt to break that down into the various prices for the components of a hybrid PHEV powertrain and the upgrade in electronics needed for a plug-in EV. There are far too many variables there, even without including such incidentals as an active noise-cancelling sound system... which is a luxury, not a necessity.

    Furthermore, there's no point in trying to specify the exact components used, such as specifying an exact reduction gear ratio of 7.937:1. The ratio will depend on what the auto maker thinks will work best for that particular PHEV, and will partly depend on what level of performance vs. energy efficiency the auto maker is aiming for.

    One size does not fit all; it never has, and never will. That applies to engineering equally as well as shopping for clothes.

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  4. The chord

    The chord New Member

    I was trying to tear down the leaf components in order to predict price for other vehicles of that size.
    So by considering to modify any midsize car, you think the difference would be 10k anyway?
    If I'm not wrong a regular note is about 10k while the e-power is 15k.
    If you consider adding 9kwh to its 1.5kwh battery capacity should be just a question of another 2k, that would make a 7k difference between icev and phev.
    Could it be smaller?
  5. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Of course not. As I said, there are many variables. The simple answer you want to your question does not exist.

    I was trying to get as close to answering the original question you actually asked. The Mitsu Outlander PHEV, so I've read, was made by adding a second more-or-less separate powertrain, an EV powertrain, to power the front wheels, and leaving the existing ICEV powertrain (driving the rear wheels) in place. Pretty much the scenario you were citing.

    But most PHEVs are not made that way. Most PHEVs are made by engineering a "combined hybrid" EV/ICEV powertrain which can feed power from electric motors, or an ICEV, or both, to drive the wheels. That sort of combined hybrid (also called by the less accurate description "parallel hybrid") powertrain won't have an ordinary transmission, typically uses a different type of gas motor than the typical gasmobile, and in other ways will be quite different from an ordinary gasmobile.

    At least for the Volt and the Clarity PHEV, and I presume for other PHEVs, the gas motor is engineered to run unthrottled, at or near the RPM speed at which it attains maximum efficiency. The Outlander PHEV can't do that; it must use the gas engine to power the drivetrain thru an ordinary transmission, which rarely if ever allows the ICEngine to run at its most efficient speed... just like an ordinary gasmobile.

    The saying YMMV: Your Mileage May Vary applies to a lot of things... including how different PHEVs are engineered.
  6. The chord

    The chord New Member

    I usually ignore non serial phev just because they're less efficient.
    That said I could probably state that making a phev out of a standard car can go from 5k (city cars) to 10k (big suv).
    And considering that gov incentives are usually aroud 7k, going phev could be achieved with no cost for the citizens.
    I'm just making optimistic assumptions
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  8. gooki

    gooki Active Member

    This is incorrect. The Outlander is the same as the Volt. Single speed transmission. Can operate all ev, and serial and parallel hybrid.
  9. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Okay, what I had read before is wrong. But you are over-simplifying it. According to the diagram below, the second electric motor which drives the rear wheels, drives an independent EV drivetrain.

    Presuming the diagram is accurate, it would be correct to say the front drivetrain is a combined hybrid drivetrain, just like that used in most other PHEVs... as you said.


    Anyway, it does rather sharply contradict most of what I posted above. :( The Outlander PHEV isn't merely a gasmobile which has an EV powertrain added to the rear, as I clamed; and it doesn't use a normal gasmobile transmission.

    So thanks for your input, Gooki; I learned something today!
  10. gooki

    gooki Active Member

    Yes the rear motor is all electric.

    I believe the German's (BMW, Audi) are still using multispeed transmissions in their PHEVs.
  11. The chord

    The chord New Member

    They clearly state it on their site
    Serial only would be even cheaper

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  13. Gasper

    Gasper New Member

    I think it depends how "regular" ICE you are looking at. Because
    - DCT can be $2,000 option, PHEV doesn't need it
    - Turbo charging? PHEV doesn't need it
    - high pressure direct injection? PHEV doesn't need it
    - Modern diesel engine with exhaust after treatment? PHEV doesn't need it

    In Autoline Daily there was a break down of electric drivetrain costs, they come up with $1,800

    I would say that almost all of the cost difference comes down to battery cost, even a non plug-in hybrid has a battery that must be capable of 20C charge/discharge not every cheap $100/kWh cells will cope with that, basicly I would say hybrid premium is actually battery premium.
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  14. gooki

    gooki Active Member

    When comparing the Outlander PHEV, there's a $4000 USD difference between the cheapest diesel, and cheapest phev models. (using Mitsubishi Australia) pricing.
  15. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    So, what should we make of that?

    Without researching the subject, just as a guess, my guess is that the diesel is made and sold in lower numbers, so will be priced higher than the petrol-powered version due to economy of scale.

    Does that fit with your assessment, Gooki? Or are there other factors at play?

  16. gooki

    gooki Active Member

    Cost of PHEV is reaching cost parity with diesel.

    I expect both PHEV and Diesel to be more expensive than petol due to increased part count and lower volumes.

    Then you have the whole issue of margins, and customer perceived added value, competition (or lack there of).
  17. The chord

    The chord New Member

    I considered 200$ per kwh. If you consider that the ionic plugin drives 30miles in all electric with 8.9kwh, 10kwh would be ok.
    1800$ power train + 2000$ battery and we're all done.
  18. Gasper

    Gasper New Member

    I don't see much point in figuring out the raw cost diference. Small volume PHEVs price may be misleading, but high volume hybrid from eg. Toyota must have a comparative profit margin to their normal ICEs, I think it would just not be possible to make 1.5 milion cars at a loss or zero margin.

    The key to comparing apples and oranges is also equipment on the car, hybrid tend to come better equipped sometimes even for the same trim level.

    New RAV4 hybrid (eAWD) has MSRP only $800 higher than Gas AWD version and it also has more power. I think that we are at the point where gas saving is not the only benefit of hybrid, it's just a better car overall.

    PHEVs have higher cost for the battery but in the markets with subsidies or tax grants this higher costs comes down to the HEV level. But PHEVs have one major drawback, interior space.

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