"Frankly, I'd go with the Jaguar"

Discussion in 'I-Pace' started by David Green, Jun 13, 2018.

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  1. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    Very interesting to see an EV with so much capability... This is great for the BEV movement...

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  3. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    Nope its a pretender. They messed up the back bad, its got a Honda Clarity intense possibly intentional faux paux that screams old civic hatch back econo box- they need to fix that because it will hold back sales. Even a bit reminiscent of a Pacer. If Jaguar's parent were Indian I'd be concerned this was a fail convincingly type of ploy. Shouldn't call it an I-Pace (Pacer- plus cliche "i"- plus pace in English is akin to plodding) and Jaguar are not known for their quality. Just like BMW's quality has hugely slipped recently especially apparently on interiors Jaguar's was never that high and the reputation persists. Sure Jaguar had style (this doesn't its got a Volvo front end and a old Civic hatch back econo box back end or Pacer back end) Its good that they are doing electrics, very good, but just like with GM's arrogant attitude with Bolt when they are actually running on fail convincingly Jaguar shouldn't be so arrogant in its press releases. Some of the Chinese brands seems to have the right to that level of arrogance based on what they are showing but other firms aside from Tesla don't. Porche's marketing with the Taycan has been interesting but they have to improve the interior a bit from what I can tell. A more apt comparison for this vehicle would be the Model Y, its not a competitor for the X you can see that in the speed. The Y will be half the price of the Jaguar.

    In essence no, absolutely no petrol retailer ICE maker can be trusted-all corrupted by petrol industry toxicity. Bet on from the ground up firms. ICE makers have a lot of karma to burn through. And any tech they had or understanding is easily taken from the best people they had who defect to firms like Tesla.
  4. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    Thats your opinion, and obviously not any reviewers agree... Even the Eletrek Tesla lovers gave it a great review.
  5. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    Well its definitely a start. Just need a little humility or fix those issues and it will be great!!!
  6. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    The Jaguar I-Pace is certainly very, very well reviewed. In fact, I haven't seen this level of uniformly enthusiastic reviews for a plug-in EV since the early months of the Tesla Model S.

    It's wonderful to see another auto maker finally offering Tesla some real competition in the EV passenger car market, even if it's only in the premium/luxury segment!
    :) :) :)

    Up the EV revolution!

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  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    I get the impression the reviewers are so happy that an European car finally appears to go head-to-head with the USA built Tesla. Until now, their own manufacturers have been Leaf-like anemic except for the Rimac supercar. Rooting for the home team makes sense given the probability of a tariff war.

    Bob Wilson
    Charles Hall likes this.
  9. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    There are many things at play in car reviews. What is clear is that Jaguar hit a home run on the I-Pace itself. I-Pace is a better designed, and manufactured car then any Tesla, Bolt, Leaf, actually any other BEV that has come before it.

    JLR has 2 more BEV's that are well along in the development pipeline, rumors are that one is a Jaguar Sedan, and the other a Range Rover product. I expect we will see production ready concepts in 2019, and see production in 2020 as a 2021 model.

    Steven from Inside EV's review of the I-Pace is a good one, that I found well thought out, and really gives an idea what Jaguar buyers can expect. Actually even the other Tesla loving (Tesla share holding) site gave the I-Pace a semi positive review, and really did not find much to complain about in the car itself. They did most of their complaining about the charging network, which showed their fundamental misunderstanding about how the car business works.

    It's my opinion that the Supercharger network will become a huge negative for Tesla long term as they have an increased cost base that other manufacturers will not experience, and with over 300k cars built, and counting that get the free service for life, I feel that is going to prove to be a long term drain on Tesla.

    Also Supercharging is slow in comparison to future 800v-1000v technology used in CCS, and others. As technology changes, Tesla will have to once again spend a fortune to upgrade their current system that has a max 410v. Think about it, they have a base of 10K Supercharger units built now, to upgrade all of those plus building new stations is very expensive. I think this puts Tesla at a long term cost disadvantage.
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Tesla pretty well decimated the high-end, luxury market with the S and X. So small wonder these manufacturers 'read the tea leaves' and got a clue. IMHO, the Model 3 is a threat to their business as it goes down market. But we hold different opinions about the SuperCharger network:
    The SuperCharger network converted the Tesla cars from a one-of, local-only science project to a car that can go longer distances. Although not as fast or flexible as a gasser, the SuperCharger network does allow usable cross country trips. If Huntsville represents other EV makers, there is another problem.

    Half of the Huntsville EV chargers are located at dealers who lock them up after hours. Asking first, I've always been allowed a charge. So starting an EV trip early enough, I can 'ask' to charge during business hours and go further but these are L2, 30-40A 208-240VAC chargers, maximum 9.6 kW. There are no Huntsville, dealer based CCS chargers nor 24x7 chargers. In contrast, the SuperCharger network is 24x7.

    I agree that other manufacturers won't suffer the expense of the SuperCharger network. Instead they condemn their customers to be limited to the local area. Long range drives are impractical. That is why we own plug-in hybrids.

    In less than 5 minutes, our BMW i3-REx gets enough gas to equal the 18 kWh battery. That works out to a charge rate of (60/5) * 18 kWh ~= 216 kW. In contrast, our Prius Prime goes over 600 miles with one, 7 minute tank of gas. Scaled to our BMW i3-REx (a reasonable assumption,) (600 / 72) * 18 kWh ~= 150 kWh, or 150 kWh * (60 / 7) ~= 1,285 kW. The I-Pace is not a plug-in hybrid.

    It is unreasonable to think Tesla is unable to upgrade their SuperCharger network for higher charge rates. It is entirely possible (and Elon is a clever guy) to expect the SuperCharger network to be future proofed. In contrast, Jaguar is starting from a blank sheet with no existing charging network. With rare exception like Edmunds and Consumer Reports, auto reviewers don't keep a demo car for more than a day or week. Worse, they don't understand 'EV think.'

    I would rather have Elon's SuperCharger problems. SuperChargers already have 24x7 access property with access to high-power grid service. They already have multiple SuperCharger stations. It would be trivial to parallel them so two adjacent, unused stations can feed one at 3 times the current rate. Regardless, I remain a plug-in hybrid advocate.

    Bob Wilson
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
    Charles Hall and David Green like this.
  11. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    I agree, Tesla did well with S & X but with 0 direct competition. Not that real measurable competition is showing up, we will see if that trend continues?

    You are right, Tesla did great with the supercharger network, and we really needed one for BEV adoption to become more mainstream. but now fast charging is evolving, voltage is increasing. CCS will have more high power stations then Tesla has Supercharger stations by the end of 2019 in the USA. Meaning longer trips are now open to other EV's.

    I agree with you on plug in hybrids being a better solution in many cases, I had a first gen Volt so I am familiar At 240 Miles of range in the I-Pace, and CCS charging, the few long trips I make a year will be ok. Even if we factor the current 50KW CCS the few times a year, thats not a huge issue. Although I think I would still be inclined to take an ICE vehicle on any trip that is over 1 charge of range.

    On the financial impact of superchargers to Tesla, what I think is the cars have to be priced to include that cost, and the recurring cost of free charging to s and X customers. Also those stations have to be maintained, and repaired, this involves cost. When you talk about upgrading, that involves huge cost as transformer, inverter, and even the "pumps" have to be replaced for a major upgrade. There has been some discussion that the Tesla Plug is not good for 1000V, and high charge rates. I think right now, S and X sales pay for the network, but losing the 7500 tax rebate in the largest Tesla market, and competition like I-Pace are going to put pressure on that price/profitability. I-Pace when comparable equipped is 15 to 30% cheaper then Tesla S, and X. Then when you factor the loss of the tax rebate, those numbers increase. I agree that Elon is clever, but he is not a good manufacturing leader, and his good ideas usually cost more, and take longer then advertised.
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  13. JyChevyVolt

    JyChevyVolt Active Member

    Might become an excellent used EV in 3 years.
    David Green likes this.
  14. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Eventually, yes. I think that is inevitable. But that will happen only after there appears a for-profit nationwide network of EV chargers, spaced to support travel between cities, which almost any PEV can use. I don't know how soon we'll see that, but I seriously doubt it will happen in the next 5 years. Maybe Electrify America will surprise me and do it sooner; I'd be very happy to be proven wrong on that point! :)

    But that's getting off the subject. The point is that so long as there is no nationwide infrastructure to rival the Superchargers in supporting long-distance travel via BEV, then the Supercharger network will continue to be a positive influence on Tesla sales, and well worth the money Tesla has invested and continues to invest. Yes, David, you're correct to say that the Supercharger network represents a cost which must be supported by sales of the MS and MX, but perhaps what you don't know is that Tesla used to charge $2000 for that, but then later said it was including that in the cost of the car.

    Of course, one could argue that is meaningless, or that it's just Tesla taking the money out of one pocket and putting it in another. But the point is that Tesla is well aware that they have an up-front cost with the Supercharger network, and they do expect MS and MX customers to pay for that.

    Things have changed with the TM3; Tesla is defraying the costs of charging TM3s with use fees. Supposedly those are intended to be revenue neutral, but since Tesla recently increased those fees significantly in many areas, I'm not sure that's still the intent.

    No "free" Supercharging for TM3 drivers! It's pay-as-you-go, which of course is much more sustainable for Tesla in the long term.

    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Thanks to a proposed 25% tariff, the I-Pace is no longe competitive.

    Bob Wilson
  16. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    I-Pace would still be the better value... and still well made... Tesla losing $7500 tax rebate soon. I am not buying I-Pace because of price, I just want the luxury... I do not want one of those Tesla's made in a parking lot tent...
  17. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Has that tariff actually gone into effect, or is it just more empty bluster from the Orange Wannabe Dictator?

    Hopefully this latest bloviation from the Blow-hard In Chief will blow over.

  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    I'm not trying to talk you into a Tesla. In engineering, Good, Fast, Cheap, pick two, and it is your money.

    There are a lot of announcements for BEVs in 2019-2020. When product shows up and customers have them in hand, I'll be happy to track their sales numbers along with the existing BEV and plug-in hybrids. Meanwhile, today I drove 100 miles in our 2014 BMW i3-REx, all EV thanks to a fast DC charger. I'm not "Waiting for Godot."

    Bob Wilson
  19. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    haha! I-Pace or Bolt could do the 100 mile trip with no outside charging. I will never even consider a Tesla until they have better build quality and more comfortable interiors.
  20. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    • Do you own a Bolt?
    • Do you own an I-Pace?
    FYI, I paid $1.00 parking meter, no charging fee. With my wife's two dogs, we walked to Humphries and had a beverage and the dogs water. I did this Tuesday, June 19th.

    So did you go anywhere Tuesday? What vehicle(s) and distance?

    There is a difference between talking EVs and driving EVs.

    Bob Wilson
  21. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    Are you feeling argumentative tonight? I said "I-Pace or Bolt could do a 100 mile trip without charging outside... " Nowhere did it saw what I did today.
  22. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    I was wondering about any recent EV experience . . . like I do. Are you driving a Gen-1 EV or plug-in hybrid?

    In the gentlest way possible, I'm asking if you have EV or plug-in experience. I learned that having plug-in hybrids changes your driving style in ways unexpected but welcome. Your I-Pace advocacy suggests a 'gasser' background, not the habits people driving hybrids, EVs or plug-in hybrids quickly master.

    If you don't have any experience, OK. I can still talk 'gasser'. In fact I can translate to 'gasser' what hybrid, plug-in, and EV changes. I'm only interested in communication, not advocacy.

    Will the I-Pace be your first EV?

    Bob Wilson
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2018
  23. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    We switched from Prius hybrids to plug-in hybrids in 2016:
    • 2014 BMW i3-REx - 72 mi EV, 78 mi gas @70 mph
    • 2017 Prius Prime - 25 mi EV, 610 mi gas @75 mph
    So how can I live with this short EV range?

    • solid lines - no recharge from home and back. Fully encompasses Huntsville AL and the BMW can reach Decatur, the nearest, large town. Parking $0.25 at free fast DC charger gives 90% into BMW.
    • dashed lines - requires a recharge at destination to return home. Best to select a charger where there is something to do while car is parked. Otherwise, start the gas engine and drive home.
    • outside dashed lines - run the gas engine and drive as far as human endurance can stand.
    As the CCS network grows, the BMW can travel further on pure EV. However it takes 30 minutes for 90% charge, ~65 miles, versus 5 minuets to refuel 100%, 78 miles. If you've got the time; something to do and; it isn't more expensive than 2 gallons of gas, fast DC charging, CCS, is no problem.

    I don't fault those who choose to stay pure EV regardless of range. Just my time is valuable and the car serves us, not the other way around.

    Bob Wilson

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