Ford makes deal with Tesla to share its Supercharger network

In General Electric, we used to ask "What is your value added engineering?"

So far, CharIN's engineering contributions escape me. Can anyone cite them?

Bob Wilson

 

They were trying to spec for every possible combination of V2X, grid integration, keeping the J1772 component
unmodified, wrap network security around it, yadda yadda. It's not clear to me that the data side of whatever
develops out of NACS intends to include all that, but it's also not clear that anyone *needs* to. Basic "plug-out"
capability, e.g. bidirectional power flow governed by some simple data commands between a car and another device,
would be amply sufficient. Put any additional complexity upstream of that, not at the charging port in whatever
physical form it takes.

I just ran across a long reddit thread that's worth grinding through...
. https://old.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/145ebgo/
people do tend to blur the distinction between physical connector and data protocol. Perhaps we
should speak of CCS vs NACS, and CAN vs "ISO" to keep 15118-xx shorter.

_H*

 

I just got back from a 3,000 mile roundtrip road trip from PA to TX with about another 1,200 miles in Texas. I had very few charging problems with the various CCS charging networks. Once, I had to call EA to get a station reset and then I could charge. There were a few where one or two of 6 or so stations were offline. Overall, I was pleased with the availability and usability of the charging networks. I used a few L2 charge stations and my slow 120v EVSE at my Aunt's house.

2022 Kia Niro EV EX - CCS (USA)

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

 

Continuing to explore the ramifications of this ... apparently Ford and Rivian intend to hand out NACS --> CCS adapters
to their existing CCS customers. Immediate question: they're likely to OEM those from some third party, so who's
it likely to be? And how many stories will we see of janky adapters melted and burning when someone tries to
shove 300 amps through them?

Does Tesla make the adapter piece for Magic Dock? Would they sell that piece to the general public, I wonder..

_H*

 

And the CCS plug is a horrid mess designed by committee for J-1772 backward compatibility.

 

I think your indictment against tesla is silly, and insulting Elon Musk does not a technical argument make. Tesla published the electrical specs for their plug, so pretty much anyone can add a "pump handle" to their DC units with a Tesla plug. The big problem with DC charging is getting enough juice to the box on the pedestal, not the plastic plug on the end of the cable. The difference for the electronics to control things is trivial, so once you have an 800v/400v/XXXv DC rail in your box you can tap the difficult part is over. The arrogance of the consortium promoting CCS not with-standing, the above pictures are precisely why I think we need to jump on NACS... I own a NiroEV, and a KonaEV, and I can tell you standing outside plugging in that awful clunky CCS connector in the freezing rain in Show-Low on the slick pavement was definitely not fun.

 

Why does any given automaker have to strike a "deal" with Tesla to let their products use superchargers?
That's not serving the public in an equitable way. Any CCS car whose owner can deal with Tesla's effed-up
payment structure and has an appropriate adapter (soon) should be able to roll up and charge.

This continued exclusionist BS on several fronts is really holding the entire industry back far more than
is remotely warranted.

_H*

 

They, the automakers, don't have to "deal" with Tesla. They could double the amount of time and money spent fixing the CCS-1 networks. You know, 2 * $0, and leave the CCS-1 customers with what they have today with their customers' EVs.

Tesla takes ICE, diesel, hybrids, PHEVs, and other EVs as trade-ins. For example, trade-in of my former 2017 Prius Prime brought my 2019 Tesla Model 3 Std Rng Plus down to $24,000. I financed the rest through my bank and paid it off early to avoid insurance comprehensive costs.

Bob Wilson

 

I thought the Chinese company Greely owned Volvo and Polestar. As such, are they really an European automaker?

 

Because Tesla built, owns and maintains these superchargers.

Plus according to what I've read, Mary stated that Tesla would be charging the same price to charge for non-Tesla owners. If that's not to the greater good, then I guess I don't understand what the greater good means. That's a sweet deal for non-Tesla owners.

 

There seems to be a tendency to conflate the NACS plug with the Tesla supercharger network. Adopting the NACS plug should be independent from Tesla, especially now that SAE is standardizing it. But the supercharger network is a Tesla service that they have every right to make money from, and if other car makers want to make deals to give their car buyers access that's normal business. A number of EV makers have deals to offer free charging at EA locations (see list of incentives near end of article).

 

This seems like flame bait. Either that or a total lack of understanding of how business works. Now that EA ( as I predicted in another post, about wanting to make money ) is going to add a 'NACS' pump handle on their electron pumps, the question becomes time & effort. Without spending grotesque amounts of capital, the charging companies cannot just run to every station and retrofit their pumps with the new handles. I use the gasoline pump jargon because the same evolution occured with the shift to unleaded gasoline. In the liquid fuel case the pumps had to be completely replaced or added independently to accommodate extra piping and storage tanks. Even though swapping some components and adding a cable is not as disruptive, it still takes more than a modicum of time and effort. While waiting for that to actually occur, automakers want to assure the people buying their vehicles that they have access to and adequate supply of 'electron pumps' if they want to travel. They also want to have promotions like 'free charging for a year' so in order to do that they have to strike a "deal" with whomever can service the request. If you put a NACS socket on the car, your service provider should really have NACS plugs. For now that's Tesla, but I'd guess within 2-3 years as the number of NACS plugs begins to proliferate on other networks, "deals" will be made with other providers, who want the money. It's called competition.

IMNSHO, EA is by far the most robust (nationwide) of all the non-Tesla networks. Their adoption of the NACS plug at their stations will likely be the proverbial hole that broke open the dam. This will force the rest of the industry to also install the plugs, which in turn will have the rest vehicle manufacturers adopting the plug because it is the most widely available, and people don't want to buy something "they can't find fuel for".

If Tesla doesn't clean up their billing/charging systems, they will rapidly find people will flood to alternatives as they become available. That being said, two years ago when I first got my EV, most of the billing systems and software were somewhere between abysmal, and awful for all the networks. Driving up to EVgo stations in the phoenix area, you had about a 30% chance you could actually use the system. I signed up to get a charge one time, because the card reader didn't work, and EVgo somehow enrolled me for monthly service. A few months later the card was compromised and replaced, and now two YEARS later, they (EVgo) has sent me to a collection agency for $30 because I failed to cancel the subscription I was unaware I even had. They got about $100 out of me for nothing already billing my card for a few months.

The last road trip I took in February Phoenix -Albuquerque this year was actually fine. There is a new EA station in Payson, which was down according to plugshare, so I went up thru Show-Low instead. The stations were all fully functional, and spaced close enough I had no range anxiety. I ran into a couple of Tesla's at the EA stations using CCS adapters. When I asked why, they said it was just more convenient for the path they wanted to travel. You don't need as many fast chargers as you do gas stations. They really just need to be scattered every 50 or so miles along the major routes, with a handful in town. If you can't plug in at home overnight for your day-to-day needs you probably shouldn't be driving an electric anyway.

 

I’ve know @hobbit since our Prius days and he is one of the more creative and active Prius and now EV engineers around.

I have long admired his well documented projects. We’ve not always agreed but good engineering means understanding alternate solutions and testing.

Bob Wilson