Even writers from Detroit seem to like the I-Pace

Discussion in 'General' started by David Green, Jul 4, 2018.

  1. David Green

    David Green Active Member

  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Thanks! From the article:

    The launch of Jaguar’s I-Pace marks the start of a new, post-Tesla phase in the era of the modern electric vehicles.
    . . .

    A hundred years ago, there was an effort to find 'the great White hope', a boxer who could defeat Jack Johnson. This article has the style of that era looking for someone to knock-out Tesla.

    This is not about a commitment to high efficiency but a professed 'anti-Tesla' effort. Sad to say, such revenge means there is a real risk the I-Pace engineers and managers will unconsciously hobble the car to save money because its goal is to lure away buyers from the Tesla:
    1. Fast DC chargers - they won't insist the local dealers install 24x7 accessible fast chargers so buyers returning from a trip can get +80% charge and let the home chargers top off the car. It remains a problem with the Prime and BMW.
    2. Low power L1/L2 chargers - it hasn't been until the 2019 year that GM is finally bring 7.2 kW charging to the Volt. BMW did that in 2014 and it remains a problem with the Prime.
    3. Inefficient risks:
      • Use an induction motor instead of permanent magnet. This means part of the electrical load is used to make the rotor magnetic field instead of just a rotating stator field.
      • More use of mechanical braking instead of one-pedal like the BMW i3.
      • Resistance heater like our BMW instead of an efficient heat pump.
      • Poor aerodynamics for 'looks' like our BMW.
      • Poor rolling resistance for 'handling' like our Prime and BMW.
    So I am content to wait until October when you get one 'in your hands.' Then we can discuss facts and data . . . after the 'newness' wears off. Rest assured I won't be trying to get you in a Tesla as much as a dispassionate look at the car in your hands.

    I remain a plug-in hybrid fan because their engines make up for a lot of sins.

    Bob Wilson
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  3. David Green

    David Green Active Member

    I am not even sure how to reply to your message that has no content, but lots of off topic FUD... Every article on the I-Pace compares it favorable to Tesla, Including Steven's right here on Inside EV's

    I-Pace is better engineering and manufactured then Tesla's, that has been clear in every review I have read.

    1. My dealer is installing 2 -50 KW chargers, I have no idea if that is a requirement or their choice... They do not have 24 hour gas pumps either BTW...

    2. I-pace has a 7KW internal charger... And a very powerful DC-DC charger for the 12V, will not have Tesla style dead 12V batteries

    3. I-Pace uses Permanent magnet motors in the best drive unit in the industry, mass, space, and energy efficiency... and patented to heck...
    I-Pace has 1 pedal mode, and can generate .2G by just letting off the accelerator, and .4G regen when you step on the brake pedal... it mixes in friction brakes to stop even in 1 pedal mode just like the I3 and Leaf

    I-Pace has the industries most advanced thermal management system incl several heat pumps, I think 3 total
    I-Pace does look good, but matches the I3 in aerodynamics good or bad I-Pace also has cooling system that can stand up to extended track duty, you are smart, and can figure out if you run more air through heat exchangers you will create more drag.
    I-Pace is set up to be sporty... so of course it has grip, much more then either of your cars... We will see that tested when Car and Driver, and Motortrend get them over here... I am guessing .85G + or- on the skidpad from looking at them lapping I-pace in Portugal.
     
    bwilson4web likes this.
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Hi,
    A lot of the technical questions will be addressed in October. Just I'd already seen the better Fully Charged review what appears to be the same event. It was the tone shared by this and other reviewers that could have read:

    "The launch of Jaguar’s I-Pace marks the start of a new, post-Tesla competitive phase in the era of the modern performance electric vehicles. (The original ignores Nissan and Chevy's efforts. They and several EU makers were in the EV market years before Jaguar decided to enter the market.)

    While Tesla deserves credit for kick-starting the modern electric-vehicle revolution 10 years ago; now it’s time for the longer established automakers Jaguar to pick up enter the EV ball. And first to market, beating the German luxury automakers to the punch, is Jaguar with its I-Pace.
    . . .
    "​

    John McCormick, the author, did not have to start by 'kicking sand' at Tesla who shamed Jaguar into doing the right thing. Give credit where due and that also includes other manufacturers who picked up the EV challenge, for better or worse, around the same time as Tesla. I tried to seek a neutral, facts and data approach in my edits and not insert the true but snarky "beating the German luxury automakers whose sales were decimated by Tesla".

    These early I-Pace reviews reminded me of a favorite joke:


    Bob Wilson
     
  5. David Green

    David Green Active Member

    Bob, your edits of the story are nonsense, I do not care! I-Pace is the best engineered EV on the market... Period... I-Pace is possibly the best engineered car on the market, and Tesla has not dented JLR sales. JLR sales have actually been increasing the last several years.


    I am personally starting to think you have been sniffing too many exhaust gasses from those PHEV you have. I do not have time to edit a writers story, it is that writers story, not yours, not mine, and especially not P-P's.... if you are such a great writer, and so knowledgable, why don't you write an I-pace review article of your own? I will take the time to read it, and will not even try to edit it, because "it is not my story"... :)~
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Reviews and reports can be written in many styles and some (i.e., anything by a Murdoch publication or broadcast) are not worth my time. I tend to avoid either overly solicitous or backhanded reviews filled with opinion fluff that hides the physics and math. Curiously, your listing of specific I-Pace features, free from references to the Tesla products, are pretty good and appreciated. But that was not the first two paragraphs of the Detroit News article.

    Another example, I was turned off by the 48 V, Continental reports because they were full of inflated claims about the efficiencies gained . . . hubris comparing them to high voltage hybrids like the Ford, Toyota, and Hyundai hybrids. It wasn't until I saw their electrically heated, catalytic converter for diesels that I realized Continental is trying to salvage small diesel cars.

    The 48 V systems lack the energy needed to even approach a proper hybrid BUT if you are trying to bring back the small diesels, ~2.0 L, 48 V makes sense. After Bosch and the diesel manufacturers cheated, bringing back small diesels is a fools errand, good money after bad, but it is their money. It was the style of 48 V advocacy that turned me off plus lack of technical content.

    I'm looking forward to your I-Pace review once you get it in your hands. About the same time, the EPA may have the roll-down coefficients so we can understand the drag power as a function of speed. Let me share an early example started in October 2005:
    [​IMG]
    This chart is from our first, 2003 Prius:
    • X-axis - steady state speed
    • left Y-axis - calculated MPG scale based upon 31% ICE drivetrain efficiency and drag power
      • blue line fuel consumption w/o drag power
      • gray line fuel consumption with drag power and vehicle overhead
    • right Y-axis - calculated drag power as a function of speed
      • red line drag power needed to sustain speed
    • validation benchmarks plotted on graph
    With this chart and subsequent benchmarks:
    1. Documented that engine suffers efficiency loss if over filled with oil.
    2. Found the maximum range speed, ~20 mph +/- 5 mph.
    3. Found a highway speed, 'knee in the curve', green diamonds: below 70 mph get 52 MPG, and; above 70 mph get below 40 MPG.
    4. Tested a thermistor hack that fooled the control laws that the engine coolant was hotter than actual. This prevented unnecessary engine running and gave more than 100 MPG at the optimum speed.
    Source: http://hiwaay.net/~bzwilson/prius/

    I am hoping once you get your I-Pace you'll benchmark kWh consumption as a function of speed. Then maybe we can find a similar set of benchmarks for the Model 3. I already have them for our BMW i3-REx and Prius Prime.

    Bob Wilson
     
  7. David Green

    David Green Active Member

    Bob, you lost me... I am not a person that has nothing to do but play with my car, and track efficiency. You will never get this kind of detailed analysis from me as I simply do not care enough about the details. On my I-Pace I will tell you if I have quality issues, breakdowns, or if I notice anomalies in the range, charging, or consumption based on weather or hills. I am not going to equip the car with monitoring equipment to measure specific details because I really only care that when I push the accelerator it goes, and does not break down, roof doesn't leak, etc.... I have a life, business, and family that I spend my time with that means much more to me then whether the car is 300wh/m or 305wh/m... Gosh, WHO CARES??? I do not monitor the light bulbs in my house either, or the refrigerator, or the oven. I just hope when switched on, they operate as intended. Now the European testing agency, and the EPA get paid and it is there position to test these things, and print conclusions. I am just going to go with their conclusions as a baseline, and unless I see something completely different, will assume they knew what they were doing. For the I-Pace the WLTP certifications are done, and a summary of the data is available in the link I attached, thats all the data I need at this stage. In the future, do not waste your time with such detailed replies to me... I am a big picture guy, I do not like to get down and analyze the little details, its gives me a headache. I also do not compare apples and oranges to come to any meaningful conclusions. When we want to buy a new backhoe, I do not bring in a street sweeper for comparison, even though both can transport an operator over a distance...

    https://ev-database.uk/car/1097/Jaguar-I-Pace
     
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Thanks:
    There is enough technical information in the link including other Tesla model metrics to map with the EPA metrics. When I was working, the only coworkers I could discuss our Prius were the other 'gear heads' because we could 'talk technical.' We spoke the same language.

    Bob Wilson
     
  9. David Green

    David Green Active Member

    Understood, when I think of a "gear head" I think of myself 8 years ago, as can be seen in the picture I am on the right setting the valves, and fuel curve on a 1500HP supercharged and methanol injected Grand Prix hydroplane right before we went out and crushed the world speed record, setting a new record that has not been broken since. We also won the national championship the same season, and never hurt the engine the whole season, which is pretty amazing as other teams chasing us were blowing up engines every weekend.

    My best friend is a lot like you, he is a very high ranking executive at a Fortune 25 company, but he is so nitpicky.. He tracks the battery life on his houses smoke detectors on a spreadsheet, and also the furnace filters... I just change them every 6 months, no need to track it. I have a simple mind... :)~ Setting the Valves.jpg
     
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    There was enough information to approximate the EPA I-Pace metrics when it finally comes available in the USA market:
    • ~95 MPGE
    • ~285 mi range
    • ~36 kWh/100 mi
    The USA is probably six months away from seeing the EPA metrics. But now I have a clue.

    Bob Wilson
     
  11. David Green

    David Green Active Member

    "when it finally comes available in the USA market"

    You mean on the schedule Jaguar gave 1 1/2 years ago at the LA auto show when they showed the concept? They said "production in 18 months" at the auto-show. That was Mid November 2016... Looks like they were right on schedule since production started in mid April 2018. Last rumor I heard is they are over 1000 a month rate right now. How long did it take Tesla to pass 1000 a month sustained on Model 3? Exactly 7 months... I have been following satellite photos of the Graz plant and I do not see any night, Sunday work, or Tent assembly lines, so they might be maxed out. haha!

    I will be pleasantly surprised if I-Pace range is rated at 285 miles EPA But I do think Jaguar is slow playing with their 240 number, 250-265 was my hope. I like the WLTP data though, they give you the fast, slow, hot, cold numbers...
     
  12. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    What we found over time is the EPA metrics lag by up to 30 days after the car goes on sale in the USA:
    www.fueleconomy.gov

    I expect we'll see the I-Pace metrics no later than the first week of December . . . this isn't my first rodeo. It could be sooner but this isn't my first rodeo.

    Bob Wilson
     
  13. David Green

    David Green Active Member

    USA release of I-Pace is scheduled for Aug 28, so 30 days after that would be September 28, but I think we will have date before then, by Law the I-Pace window sticker has to show the mileage data doesn't it? So on the first ones that are seen the window sticker info will be all over town.
     
  14. interestedinEV

    interestedinEV Active Member

    Tesla is the king (and really the only real game in town today) of the >$60,000 segment. Jaguar is getting in but so are others (Audi, etc). Can Jaguar I-Pace compete with Tesla with all the competition that is going to come to the luxury market. I do not know but here are three potential detractors
    1) JLR does not have enough dedicated charging stations. For example can then help drivers go from LA to New York. There may be ways today but JLR has to give the confidence that this a long drive car, not a city commuter car.
    2) Is JLR or the Tatas (who own JLR) willing to invest in bringing out a series of cars and SUV's that are BEV's and cover a variety of segments. A one trick pony may not work
    3) In that high priced segment, you need to have at least level 3 autonomous driving capabilities. JLR is level 1 now (may be a 2 at the best). However the work around may be through Wyamo (Google) who have agreed to buy 20,000 I-Pace's over the next few years. If Jaguar can license the technology, they would be the one manufacturer to take on Tesla.

    So I-Pace may be the one who takes on Tesla at the high end of the market, or they may fail. I do not know. The only thing I would not do is to count Tesla out. And the other thing JLR does not have a reputation for quality. I hope that has changed.
     
  15. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    It was the Hyundai Ioniq release where the web page metrics happened AFTER the first one arrived in Huntsville. I visited the dealer for a test drive and took a photo of the Monroney sticker. The web page absence was cleared up within a month.

    BTW, Hyundai was caught years ago reporting overly optimistic numbers. EPA testing led to fixing the numbers. Analysis of the fully.com suggests the Hyundai Ioniq may have a similar problem. Just the EPA seems to have other priorities than catching mileage fraud.

    Bob Wilson
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  16. David Green

    David Green Active Member

    Honda, Toyota were busted years ago for HP and Torque that was bogus... And several have been busted on the fuel economy...
     
  17. David Green

    David Green Active Member

    1) JLR is not in the charging business, and never going to build a charging network...

    2) JLR has 2 BEV's in addition to I-Pace in development, pretty far along I understand. We will see concepts next year and production 12-18 months following.

    3) JLR uses Mobileye hardware and software for driving assist, as does Acura, Nissan, Cadillac*, Kenworth trucks, and a ton of others Over 250 models have mobileye and counting. Not sure if that is Level 2 but in the Leaf Pro Pilot works well. In the Cadillac GM went several steps further, using Mobileye hardware with their own algorithms, and software. I think Cadillac will be the first to reach true level 3 as they are geared to hands off driving. Waymo tech is like Cruise Automation, its not going to be licensed for consumer vehicles for a decade or more. Tesla autopilot does some things well, and others very poorly, but is not a level 3 system, because it requires hands on...


    On the market, Jaguar will sell well, as will Audi E-tron, both are well built vehicles that will appeal to more discrimination buyers. Driving LA to NY... in an EV? Anybody that has the time for that should find a hobby... In my life I have never driven more then 500 miles from home... the airport is 25, and I would rather fly.
     
  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Curious, I did some straight-line approximations to get:
    Code:
    Standard|model        |MPGE|range|kWh/100 mi
    EPA     |Model 3      |130 |310  |26
    EPA     |Bolt         |119 |238  |28
    EPA(Est)|I-Pace       | 95 |285  |36
    EPA     |Model X 75D  | 93 |238  |36
    EPA     |Model X 100D | 87 |295  |39
    EPA     |Model X P100D| 85 |289  |40
    
    UK      |Model 3      |131 |280  |26
    UK      |I-Pace       | 99 |250  |34
    UK      |Model X 75D  | 95 |205  |35
    UK      |Model X 100D | 93 |260  |36
    UK      |Model X P100D| 90 |250  |38
    

    • Bolt - EV manufactured by a mainline company
    • I-Pace - EV newly manufactured by a mainline company
    • I-Pace is closer to Model X performance than Bolt and Model 3
    What impressed me is how Tesla has made significant improvements in the Model 3 efficiency relative to the Model X. But the Chevy EVs, 2015 Spark to 2018 Bolt have nearly identical efficiency.

    Bob Wilson
     
  19. David Green

    David Green Active Member

    Might need to look at your calculations... I took the Bolt which is not nearly as aerodynamic as the Tesla Model 3, and does not have a heat pump HVAC system, and took the range of 238 miles /60KWH, and then multiplied it by 80 (tesla Model 3 battery size) and come up with 317 miles, Tesla model 3 is rated at 310 EPA. I think the Bolt has a more efficient motor then the Model 3, but a less efficient car.
     
  20. David Green

    David Green Active Member

    I went back and looked at EV database, and their Model 3 is all estimates, so Model 3 has not been through the WLTP yet. but looking at the efficiency they are estimating 250 wh/m for model 3, with exactly matched Nissan Leaf, and others, but IONIQ is better... I guess Tesla needs to work to catch Huyndai. I could not find data on Opel/Chevrolet
     

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