Even the hyper modified Tesla Model S Race Car overheats on the track

Discussion in 'General' started by David Green, Jul 9, 2018.

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  1. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    I guess the Tesla S is a long way from being a reliable track car, as this one that has been lightened by 1K lbs, with racing brakes, and tires, composite body, and still overheats after what looks like a nice easy lap and a half. 5 mile range on the track ?

    https://jalopnik.com/here-s-what-happened-with-the-tesla-model-s-race-car-th-1827321127

    In comparison it seems Jaguar engineered a bit more capability into the I-Pace right off the showroom floor

    https://www.motoring.com.au/jaguar-i-pace-2019-video-review-113106/

    I cannot wait to see what Porsche has for us in the Taycan...
     
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  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Shocking, driving the car within the performance parameters might work:

    The spokesperson also said the technical team confirmed that the car will be able to run the race distances, but at a more manageable pace—around 470 HP will be what the cars can maintain throughout the race, with the full 778 HP available for things like overtaking. The spokesperson said each driver will have “full control” over when they decide to use the car’s full power, and that it’ll be “part of the strategy and part of the show.”

    We’ll get to see how that show plays out soon enough, since the first 10-race season for the international series is scheduled to start in November.

    The Model 3 dual motor, performance car may be a better choice based upon use of PM motors and improved efficiency. Regardless, we'll know more in November.

    BTW, another video by a different model, a Model X, Tesla owner:


    Bob Wilson
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  4. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    The pace in the race car did not look to be very fast... It was certainly not bing pushed to the limits. Another thing to notice Bjorn's max regen is 50kw, I-Pace can regen up to 150kw or .4G and can also regen to a stop unlike any Tesla.

    On Bjorn's car he was unable to hold 200km, which of course the I-pace was designed to hold its maximum speed for the duration of the charge, and was tested for that in hot weather in Italy. Video attached see 14:30



    On the Model 3 performance, the rear motor is PM, the front motor is AC induction.
     
  5. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator Staff Member

    Yeah. I was hoping the organizers of this series had some kind of extra cooling figured out. The Model S wasn't engineered to be a track car, though I thought the lightening would make an improvement, but it sure doesn't seem like it. Their solution of racing at lower power levels isn't the solution I was hoping for.

    It would still be interesting to see if one of their cars can keep up with the race version of the I-Pace.
     
  6. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member


    That will be interesting to see, but they are different series. The Tesla is a full on composite body race car, where the race I-Pace is a stripped out production car with body effects and bigger brakes, tires.

    I want to see a production I-Pace run the Nurburgring... That would be interesting.
     
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  8. Domenick

    Domenick Administrator Staff Member

    For some reason I thought they were beefing up the output of the car as well. Maybe because they were talking about making an SVR version with better performance I thought this would be the retail version of the eTrophy car.
     
  9. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    Performance Model 3 will likely stomp a Jaguar I-Pace. Its older technology in the S for this instance. But an S would still stomp an i-Pace likely even running at reduced power. This idea that the Jaguar offering is somehow tech equivalent for a Tesla is total abject nonsense. For instance that inside is some how laudable because it has more gauges or switches. They need to do a lot better. I don't criticize the Rimac's or the electric Austin (when it was around in concept) but I see econo-box styling and see planned compliance-car production numbers for the Jag and am not impressed plus a bunch of bluster Jag shouldn't be pulling- Jag doesn't have anything like the status of Tesla at this point- comparing the two is like comparing an Honda to a Plymouth. Did they do brakes like Tesla, did they do a heat pump like Tesla, did they limit moving parts and fluids like Tesla? Do they have the over the air updates? Are they a pure green player? Do they have the same vision. They get some credit but shouldn't over do it. Do they do improvements like Tesla, are they vertically integrated like Tesla- no they are generic parts bin maker like someone ordering vitimins from a formulary and trying to claim a brand out of being a marketer whereas Tesla is like a firm that produces its own products.
     
  10. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    Do you ever do any research before you post your nonsense? I would really hope the Model 3P can stomp an I-Pace on the track, if Tesla cannot beat an off road capable SUV with their much lighter and less luxurious performance sedan that would really be shocking.

    If you watched the above posted Videos you can clearly see the Tesla's X cannot hold 200 km/h for an entire battery, and lets remember Bjorn tested his X at night in cooler weather, Jaguar tested the I-Pace in 35C weather.

    Yes, Jaguar uses heat pumps, 3 of them actually in the I-Pace, they use them not only for the interior, but also for the battery which is more advanced than Tesla's battery TMS.

    Yes, I-Pace does get software over the air... I-Pace engineers also have hidden easter eggs in the system.

    When you ask "do they do brakes like Tesla" I can only assume you are talking about REGEN braking, and yes, they regen better then Tesla, and can generate up to 150kw in Regen, Tesla's max is around 75kw, as also can be seen in Bjorn's video above. Jaguar I-Pace can also do true 1 pedal driving, meaning if you let off the accelerator it will REGEN all the way to a stop, which Tesla's cannot do.

    You talk about Tesla's vertical integration, again, do you ever research what you are saying? On S and X, the battery cells come from overseas, and Tesla does not make the seats, tires, glass, rubber, steering, suspension, electronics, and drive units which are made in Taiwan, although Tesla does make the motors. I figure on S and X Tesla is actually manufacturing about 45% of the cost basis of the car... Toyota on the other hand is the king of vertical integration at about 70% within their family of companies.
     
  11. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    FUD rating for the post starting this thread:
    3 false statements, 2 half-truths


    If this thread had a truthful title, it would be "Racing team accidentally disables Model S thermostat, causes car to overheat quickly at top speed on track"

    * * * * *

    This is yet another thread created to attack Tesla with FUD. There are so many from just this one serial Tesla basher that we really ought to start numbering them.

    Here are the previous Tesla bashing threads started by this one person:

    1. Model S fatal accident/fire
    2. Tesla driver did not want to wait in line for coffee?
    3. Another fire Truck??
    4. Another Tesla Fatality with Fire
    5. Are the Tesla Model 3 brakes really worst in class?
    6. Interesting New Details in the Utah Autopilot Accident
    7. Looks like this Model S went after a Police car instead of a Firetruck?
    8. Another Glass Roof Cracked on Model 3
    9. Did the Model X Autopilot Accelerate into the barrier?
    10. Tesla suffers Tent fire... Not Model 3 Production Tent...
    11. Is Elon Musk a Bully?
    12. Did Tesla really stop testing brakes to meet their production goals?/

    But wait, there's more! He also created the following threads in which to make anti-Tesla FUD or "concern troll" posts, which are of course just a more subtle form of FUD:

    13. Very Interesting Panasonic news filtering its way across the Pacific Ocean
    14. Sounds like Tesla engineers wanted to make Autopilot work like Supercruise
    15. Tesla/Grohman Automated Battery Assembly Arrived in NV
    16. Doug Field needs a break?

    So, this is #17 in a series of threads specifically created by this one single Tesla basher to post FUD.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
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  13. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Even in the article which is linked in the OP, it's made clear that this wasn't a proper test of the car:

    The engineers also later found sensor issues that let the battery get hotter than it should have, the spokesperson told Jalopnik.​

    “The team spotted an accidental disconnection of one of the outdoor temperature sensors from the air conditioning system, which caused the air conditioning system to not send cold air to the battery and other systems when needed,” the spokesperson said. “There is always a limit if the power is used indiscriminately, but the resistance threshold is much higher if the air conditioning system had worked correctly. The team has now fixed that.”

    The spokesperson also said the technical team confirmed that the car will be able to run the race distances, but at a more manageable pace—around 470 HP will be what the cars can maintain throughout the race, with the full 778 HP available for things like overtaking.
    Naturally, this central issue wasn't mentioned in the OP, because that wouldn't fit the FUD purpose for which this thread was created.

    * * * * *

    Of course, the Model S isn't designed to be a track car, and running it at top speed for extended periods will certainly overheat the battery pack, the motor, or both. But not as quickly as claimed in this FUD.

    And of course, it's just more Tesla bashing FUD to claim the I-Pace works "better" on the race track. The Tesla Model S P100D has a top speed of 155 MPH; the I-Pace is limited to 124 MPH. Obviously, if the Model S was limited to the top speed of the I-Pace, it would take significantly longer to overheat.

    "David Green" has been told all this before. Why does he keep starting new threads filled with false statements; threads which have no other purpose than to attack Tesla and spread false information? I think the answer is pretty clear.

    But even worse than the many false statements and the extremely biased claims, is the sort of "zero-sum game" portrayed in the FUD used as a strategy to attack Tesla. And I don't mean just this one Tesla basher, either; I mean the overall anti-Tesla campaign by all serial Tesla bashers. Being a fan of Tesla doesn't stop me from admiring the Jaguar I-Pace, or praising it for its many virtues. Obviously the same cannot be said for the Tesla bashers!

    True EV fans and supporters will welcome all well-designed plug-in EVs, as offering more choices to car buyers. Attacking one brand or another with FUD betrays an anti-EV agenda.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  14. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    How about we disconnect the climate control temperature sensors in the I-Pace's battery pack, and see what happens then. That would be a proper comparison to what happened with the Model X described in the OP.

    This thread is nothing but pointless discussion based on a false premise.

     
  15. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    That might come better from someone who did not, like you, deliberately ignore the most important part of the very article that is the focus of this thread; the part which makes this entire discussion moot. The part that explains the racing team accidentally disconnected a climate control sensor, leading to premature overheating of the car!

    If you yourself did sufficient research of actual facts, instead of only searching for "alternative facts" and fake news about Tesla to post, then you'd find that Tesla makes its own seats.

    Also, Tesla has created a glass technology group, and has talked about plans to make its own auto glass. Are you sure none of the window glass in the Model X is made in-house?
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
    101101 likes this.
  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    The clock is ticking:
    • October - someone is getting a personal I-Pace . . . reality testing begins.
    • November - an actual race between the Model S and I-Pace will occur,". . . the first 10-race season for the international series is scheduled to start in November."
    In the meanwhile:


    Also:


    Bob Wilson
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  17. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    Brakes like on the 918 or essentially electric brakes without much pad assist- separate issue than regen- look at bolt. Also vert integration is going to be higher at Tesla- does its own pack, doing some of its own chips soon, does its own software, does part of its cell manufacture, does its own seats, really did most of the car down to a greater level save for steering columns, more and more trying to do it in the same factory. So yes higher vertical integration. What about steering in Jag- more hydraulics(?) or electric steering?

    Point on Model 3 is it apparently doesn't suffer from the track stamina issue. Also at some point we should see a new model S, even if its been under continual improvement. Also nothing indicates Jag has access to cell or pack tech like Tesla at this point. And its not like the Jag is some huge vehicle its more Model Y level than Model X.
     
  18. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    I find the drag races to be boring... But that is Tesla's one trick... Just do not go past a mile, when they will begin to overheat...
     
  19. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    The Tesla overheated, again... and the fact the team had leaf blowers handy tells you this was not the first time. In this particular track test, which the car was not being pushed anywhere near the limit as can be clearly seen in the video, I just showed Tesla's TMS to inferior.

    In Bjorn Nylands Test, at 200km or 125 mph, the Model x overheated after 1/2 hour, but lets keep in mind Bjorn tested this in the middle of the night at ambient temps of 5-6C, where as the Jaguar team ran the I-Pace high speed testing at an ambient temp of 35C, 45F to 95F is a big difference that any racer can attest requires much different cooling parameters in the vehicle.

    On your claim of false statements, please go back to the posts any point out which one was false? My posts were of actual current events in the news.

    On Tesla making their own seats, I was incorrect, sorry for that, but in the article you reference Fred says his seats in his S have been a major problem...
     
  20. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    I've got a better idea: Why don't you point to any that were not false. That will be a very short list!

    Run the I-Pace run at the Tesla Model X P100D's top speed of 155 MPH and see how fast it overheats.

    What's that? It can only do 124 MPH? Well then, you have no idea which car is better at handling waste heat from the battery pack, do you?

    This thing where you keep ignoring the truth and posting the same FUD over and over... not working for you, dude.

    You're proving my point, not that I needed additional proof.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  21. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Reality check:

    The Pike's Peak race lasts 12.42 miles over 156 turns, climbing 4,720 ft (1,440 m), on grades averaging 7.2%.

    Tesla cars stripped of weight for the run do just fine. The racing team cools down the battery pack with ice before the race; no high-tech modifications to the cooling system needed!

    See: "Tesla Model S tackles Pikes Peak, setting a new record in the process"

    You see, "Mr. Green": This is an example why I say we Tesla fans have no need to lie. The truth serves us better.

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2018
  22. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    You see things funny:
    [​IMG]
    He was running out of battery which was down to 16%, see lower left. There is no evidence of heat limiting the speed.

    November will be here soon enough and we'll see how well they scamper around the track. Until then, drag races are close enough.

    During WW-II, both sides used methanol injection to cool the intake air and generate 'War Emergency Power.' Given how well water removes heat, I'm wondering if some sort of water or alcohol mist generator might improve heat removal:


    Almost looks like liquid nitrogen or dry-ice clouds . . . hummmm. Chill-down pre-race.

    Bob Wilson
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  23. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member


    I-Pace does not go 155MPH, but at its top speed around 125, it will outrun a Tesla for longevity, and can run on a road course that transitions from hard accelerations, to hard braking, and back to hard accelerations much better then a Tesla S or X. That is not FUD, that is fact.... Tesla S and X suck on the track, as they are poorly engineered for performance driving. No matter how much you troll me, the truth is widely known, even Steven from InsideEV's clearly stated the I-Pace can go lap after lap being pushed to its limit in hot weather. Some reviewers went 12 laps, which is nearly 40 miles, and no sign of fade, power drop... Tesla can go 1 lap... HAHA!

    On the Pike Peak car that you posted... 11:48.264? We are really going to put that up as an accomplishment? VW on their first try was under 8 minutes, why doesn't Tesla try to break that record? If Elon is so smart, and so great at EV engineering, it should be easy, just like taking his semi loaded on a trip across the USA... HAHA!

    My guess is I-Pace will annihilate this 11:37.149 "record" in stock configuration. We may not have to wait long to see... Pikes Peak is exactly the kind of course I-Pace will have the advantage of not overheating and limiting power. Place your bets...
     
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